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95 mpg

I see a lot of people comparing their used cars and a new volt or new prius. You do know prius' came out over a decade ago right? I can buy a good used prius for 6k. Not everyone buys a brand new prius or hybrid.

If I bought a used prius gen 2 for 6k and drive it for a few years, I may break even vs driving a low mpg car or a rust bucket. A prius is safer, has the creature comfort, technology, etc. Just saying. No calculations, just guesstimations.

My neighbor bought a brand new volt and after a month, it was getting towed back to the dealer. I'm going to ask him what went wrong next time.

If you're not insecure like most folks, buy a prius and drive it until it dies. It'll probably take 300k plus miles to kill one as proven by taxi drivers.

I'd buy a volt when they're around 10k and proven reliable like the prius.
 
i have been in the market for a new car since jan 1. i wanted the Volt. badly.

unfortunately i don't fit in it. it's really really weird but i couldn't get comfortable in the front seat. i sat in a cruze while at the dealer and that car felt way bigger in the driver's seat. on the Volt the window/door cramped me on my left to the point of distraction and my head was firmly planted in the headliner while trying to achieve a relaxed posture (i'm only 6'2). i was really bummed because i wasn't even going to cross shop other cars, just plunk down for one. :(

ended up with a 2013 Fusion hybrid. not a bad consolation prize. :cool

Whoever would have thought that I'd take the CAR for gas mileage, not the BIKE...

Rob, you were right...this thing rocks! Driven a leaf, owned a Prius and I feel at home in the Volt. It feels like a very quiet, very smooth, normal car.
 
I put 21,000 miles on my prius this year. It gets 45 mpg, denali got 15. At $4/gal average, lets do the math:

21000 / 45 = 466.67 gallons x $4 = $1867

Vs.

21000 / 15 = 1400 gallons x $4 = $5600

I lease my Prius for $300 / mo., for $3600 annually. Plus ins is cheaper than the denali. So, its still cheaper to drive and pay for the Prius. And each mile I drive I save more money.

Plus, I like the damn car. Go figure!

But your Prius can't:

tow a boat
haul 4 kids and all their hockey gear around
take a family and the dog camping for a week
pull a trailer with two motos on it
drive through 12" of snow
etc.

And you're 3x more likely to die in a subcompact car as you are in a large SUV.

Comparing cost without comparing utility is extremely misleading.
 
I see a lot of people comparing their used cars and a new volt or new prius. You do know prius' came out over a decade ago right? I can buy a good used prius for 6k. Not everyone buys a brand new prius or hybrid.

If I bought a used prius gen 2 for 6k and drive it for a few years, I may break even vs driving a low mpg car or a rust bucket. A prius is safer, has the creature comfort, technology, etc. Just saying. No calculations, just guesstimations.

For 6K I would rather buy a Protege5 in mint condition. It handles better, gets about 30mpg, and doesn't make me nervous that I'll need to replace an 800 pound battery pack.
 
So, its still cheaper to drive and pay for the Prius. And each mile I drive I save more money.
You are still $800 short of break even for the year, just using the numbers you provided.

I like the idea of the electric cars that have gasoline generators as a more efficient way of getting the energy out of the gasoline like the Fisker Karma

Except it's $100k
A Volt works this way, ya' know?
Nice job hunting down and passing the two Roadsters! :thumbup
Yeah, well there is proof of performance, right there. :laughing



I better get my own dang electric energy before I go electric car. PG&E will rape me, otherwise.
 
I did the hybrid thing for a year when I was driving to LA a lot. Other than saving a bit of $ on gas, driving was just that. Wasn't fun at all. Now that gas cost isn't a concern to me at all, I quickly got rid of the hybrid.
 
I better get my own dang electric energy before I go electric car. PG&E will rape me, otherwise.

I been saying this all along...Solar Panels (they come in various grades, get the highest output grade) Generate (run meter backwards) by the amount you draw (running it forwards) in a 24 hr day...So you charge your plug-in Hybrid
(at home) during the night, for free.

The Ford C-Max comes in three versions, one version is plug-in. And ..the C-max cars, freakin move, when you punch that (used to be called gas pedal)..pedal on the floor.
I think there is a Volt that is plug-in.

Prius never made a plug-in..but if you don't mind voiding your warranty
(I wouldn't do that) there are companies that make the conversion to a Prius..to make it a plug-in.
 
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It does make you go hmmm? when a 1993 civic gets WAY better mileage than the 2010 model. The GF bought a 2002 accord for its lux features, without considering the real world 19 MPG. She has a lead foot, but I can only squeeze 22 hwy out of it on trips.

Direct injection, small turbos mounted in smaller cars and sane driving habits would seriously reduce fuel consumption. It's appalling that cars rolled out in 2012 are less efficient than those of 20 years ago. Yea,yea, I know they make more HP per liter which is a true measure of efficiency. It (mpg) should be better across the board, not just for select vehicles.
 
But your Prius can't:

tow a boat
haul 4 kids and all their hockey gear around
take a family and the dog camping for a week
pull a trailer with two motos on it
drive through 12" of snow
etc.

And you're 3x more likely to die in a subcompact car as you are in a large SUV.

Comparing cost without comparing utility is extremely misleading.

Not only that, if he does 20K a year on a leased vehicle, he's going to be seeing an 'up the aSS' payment when he returns the vehicle after 3 years with 60K on it!

It does make you go hmmm? when a 1993 civic gets WAY better mileage than the 2010 model. The GF bought a 2002 accord for its lux features, without considering the real world 19 MPG. She has a lead foot, but I can only squeeze 22 hwy out of it on trips.

Direct injection, small turbos mounted in smaller cars and sane driving habits would seriously reduce fuel consumption. It's appalling that cars rolled out in 2012 are less efficient than those of 20 years ago. Yea,yea, I know they make more HP per liter which is a true measure of efficiency. It (mpg) should be better across the board, not just for select vehicles.

The new civic is a lot larger a bit heavier than the old '93 models.
 
93 to 2010. 2010 is about 300lbs heavier and up 30hp
That is comparing DX to DX. What the 2010 gets hwy my 95 gets city.
 
It does make you go hmmm? when a 1993 civic gets WAY better mileage than the 2010 model. The GF bought a 2002 accord for its lux features, without considering the real world 19 MPG. She has a lead foot, but I can only squeeze 22 hwy out of it on trips.

Dude something is wrong with that Accord. Even a V6 should get you high 20s minimum on the highway.
 
The ELR is just awesome looking. However, they're hinting at around a $60k starting price. Burst my bubble. Tesla price but not much faster than a Volt. Might as well just get the Volt and continue to laugh at Tesla owners that think they're somehow saving money.
 
But your Prius can't:

tow a boat
haul 4 kids and all their hockey gear around
take a family and the dog camping for a week
pull a trailer with two motos on it
drive through 12" of snow
etc.

And you're 3x more likely to die in a subcompact car as you are in a large SUV.

Comparing cost without comparing utility is extremely misleading.

Fair enough, we all have our circumstances.

My prius can't tow a boat or a trailer with two bikes, agreed. But are you towing a trailer to work everyday? Probably once a month, maybe once a weekend if you're hardcore, which few people are. In which case, you pay to play.

My prius can fit my hockey gear just fine. It could probably fit 2 full size adult bags and gear. I'm not sure what car you have to facilitate 4 peoples though? Sounds like an anomaly to me.

My prius could take me and a few people camping just fine.

My prius probably can't plow through the snow, but 99% of driving done in the Sierras during snow storms is not a problem. CalTrans plows really well!

Besides, I also have a Dodge Ram 2500 diesel for all of that. /thread
 
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I used the EPA estimate for the volt, $1000/yr fuel consumption.

For the regular car (15K miles / 30MPG) * $4/gal = $2000

After 15 years / 225K miles:
the Volt cost you $30K to purchase plus $15K in fuel
The combustion car cost you $15K to purchase + $30K in fuel.

If the cost of fuel doubles, then it may be more worth it but will still take 7.5 years to break even. Of course I have never seen any battery in existence that lasts more than 7-10 years, so it may take longer still to break even if they cost about $3-4K to replace like the Prius.

Ok, we need to set a standard on mileage. If it's the Volt's $1K a year, that's based on 12K miles. My mileage is around 20K a year, so that was how I did my calculation. Also, I don't keep cars 15 years or to even 100K miles. Nowhere near that...but let's go to that anyway. One other problem with yours and others comparisons is you're comparing a mid level luxury car (ES300/ IS250/ 328i/ C250/ G25 class/ Accord/ Maxima) with what? A Honda fit for $15K? I don't think you can get new Honda Fit for that price so it's a pretty poor comparison. To be honest, if someone wanted just pure economy, they can get a Geo Metro for about $2500 (for a decent one). I'm not into that game cause it goes on ad infintum...so I compare it to other alternatives I'd spend near $30K on. There's no much you can buy brand new that has as much equipment as the Volt for $30K, period. Also, my situation is unique: I can purchase whatever used vehicle I want with no tax/title consequences and sell whenever I wish. Yet, I still chose the new route for a number of financial only reasons. I don't WANT to buy new...I abhor it, in fact.

Ok, on to the math:

Price of new Volt: $30K
Monthly payment: $499 (0% financing)
Miles per anum: 15,000
MPG Average: 56
annual fuel cost: $1071 (gas + electric)

Price of new Honda Accord (note, not the same class): $29K
Monthly payment:$508
Miles per anum: 15,000
MPG (average): 29 MPG (4 cyl, CV)
Annual fuel cost: $2068

Note: I used average MPG from fueleconomy.gov's user reports for both cars. I'm doing just less than double their rate on my Volt, thus far.

Given an equal comparison, the difference in new/ new is $997/ year. That's a 50% savings, all things being equal. Now, more things to consider: the Volt's gas engine only operates when it needs to and thus, the mileage/ use on that engine is limited to how often it operates. A traditional gas engine has mileage/ maintenance requirements. The Volt's is "time of use", meaning the car may have 200K miles on it, but gas engine only has 10K miles of actual use. More benefits: the services needed on a regular ICE auto may not be needed on a PEV (Plug in vehicle) and this, spark plugs, oil changes, timing belts/ chains, air filters, fuel treatments, plug wires, etc, all may not be needed as frequently. They're not cheap. We just got one of 2007 Silverado's with 100K serviced...it was about $1K for the engine tuneup alone.

Cash flow respective, the Volt beats the Accord as well with $91/ month better flow, but also, better value retention than the Accord, by a decent amount (37% for the 2011 Accord, 48% for the Volt). But don't stop there! The Volt actually has much BETTER value retention when you factor in the incentives. When I did my investigation into if to buy used/ new and if to buy a Volt even, I used manheim.com's data from used sales (my dealer wholesale auction site with 10's of millions of actual vehicle sales) to determine value of a 2 year old Volt. the answer was pretty easy: a 2 year old, 25K Volt sells for $24-25K. That car new, I bought for $30K (well $29K when you factor other incentives I can get). In 2 years, I can anticipate a loss of $6-7K, a bit over the $5K shown. If the Volt is worth $23K in two years, that's 77% value retention in 2 years. Conversely, via Manheim's numbers on the 2011 Accord 4 door, EX-L with 25K miles is about $18K average, for a 63% value rentention (or 37% loss), or an $11K loss. When I factor those numbers in, things look even better for the Volt (and any PEV/ hybrid actually...) on an annual basis.

Let's work through 5 years of ownership, to the end of the loan period. Each car will have 75K miles and the following expenses will have mounted:\

Volt

Fuel: $5355 (gas + electric)
Oil service:$120 (based on 21K miles of ICE use)
engine service: $0
Value loss: $13K (based on KBB projections)

Total Cost: $18,475
Cost per mile: $.25

Accord:

Fuel: $10,340
Oil service: $450
Engine service (plugs, tune, etc): $0 (change plugs at 90K, etc)
electricity: $0
Value Loss: $19K (based on 2008 price of $10K wholesale)

Total cost: $29,790
cost per mile: $.40

Advantage: Volt, $11,315

At ANY point, in the Volt (and any ICE PEV/ Hybrid) you're ahead of the regular gas ICE vehicle in value. It PAINS me to say that...it really does. I'm a big HP guy. Shit, I sold my 560 hp CTS-V and was looking at a CLK63 black series to replace it and end up in a friggin Volt...how did that happen? Cause
I'm cheap and realize that mission I'm doing with the car (or THAT car) is wrong...if I want a track car, like Everrett said, buy an everyday car that's efficient and comfy that I can do business in and if I want, I can still trade in HP stuff, which I've always done with my license. That won't change, but my attitude for what I drive personally has. We're talking a $2263 difference per year between the Accord (the class leader, really) and the volt...or better said, about $188/ month. That's a damn bike payment! That's not a small amount IMO and to waste that money simply because one wants the Accord more seems and *thinks* it will be better, seems a bit wasteful to me, in terms of the ROI on that $188/ month. An extended Volt warranty to 100K and 72 months is about $1800...which makes it every bit as reliable as the Accord through the 5 year period.

I'll take the Volt. And then I'll maybe not sell the 700hp 69' charger in inventory or one of the other rides. However, for a daily driver, what makes the most sense? Not using gas...that's what.
 
Ok, we need to set a standard on mileage. If it's the Volt's $1K a year, that's based on 12K miles. My mileage is around 20K a year, so that was how I did my calculation. Also, I don't keep cars 15 years or to even 100K miles. Nowhere near that...but let's go to that anyway. One other problem with yours and others comparisons is you're comparing a mid level luxury car (ES300/ IS250/ 328i/ C250/ G25 class/ Accord/ Maxima) with what? A Honda fit for $15K? I don't think you can get new Honda Fit for that price so it's a pretty poor comparison. To be honest, if someone wanted just pure economy, they can get a Geo Metro for about $2500 (for a decent one). I'm not into that game cause it goes on ad infintum...so I compare it to other alternatives I'd spend near $30K on. There's no much you can buy brand new that has as much equipment as the Volt for $30K, period. Also, my situation is unique: I can purchase whatever used vehicle I want with no tax/title consequences and sell whenever I wish. Yet, I still chose the new route for a number of financial only reasons. I don't WANT to buy new...I abhor it, in fact.

Ok, on to the math:

Price of new Volt: $30K
Monthly payment: $499 (0% financing)
Miles per anum: 15,000
MPG Average: 56
annual fuel cost: $1071 (gas + electric)

Price of new Honda Accord (note, not the same class): $29K
Monthly payment:$508
Miles per anum: 15,000
MPG (average): 29 MPG (4 cyl, CV)
Annual fuel cost: $2068

Note: I used average MPG from fueleconomy.gov's user reports for both cars. I'm doing just less than double their rate on my Volt, thus far.

Given an equal comparison, the difference in new/ new is $997/ year. That's a 50% savings, all things being equal. Now, more things to consider: the Volt's gas engine only operates when it needs to and thus, the mileage/ use on that engine is limited to how often it operates. A traditional gas engine has mileage/ maintenance requirements. The Volt's is "time of use", meaning the car may have 200K miles on it, but gas engine only has 10K miles of actual use. More benefits: the services needed on a regular ICE auto may not be needed on a PEV (Plug in vehicle) and this, spark plugs, oil changes, timing belts/ chains, air filters, fuel treatments, plug wires, etc, all may not be needed as frequently. They're not cheap. We just got one of 2007 Silverado's with 100K serviced...it was about $1K for the engine tuneup alone.

Cash flow respective, the Volt beats the Accord as well with $91/ month better flow, but also, better value retention than the Accord, by a decent amount (37% for the 2011 Accord, 48% for the Volt). But don't stop there! The Volt actually has much BETTER value retention when you factor in the incentives. When I did my investigation into if to buy used/ new and if to buy a Volt even, I used manheim.com's data from used sales (my dealer wholesale auction site with 10's of millions of actual vehicle sales) to determine value of a 2 year old Volt. the answer was pretty easy: a 2 year old, 25K Volt sells for $24-25K. That car new, I bought for $30K (well $29K when you factor other incentives I can get). In 2 years, I can anticipate a loss of $6-7K, a bit over the $5K shown. If the Volt is worth $23K in two years, that's 77% value retention in 2 years. Conversely, via Manheim's numbers on the 2011 Accord 4 door, EX-L with 25K miles is about $18K average, for a 63% value rentention (or 37% loss), or an $11K loss. When I factor those numbers in, things look even better for the Volt (and any PEV/ hybrid actually...) on an annual basis.

Let's work through 5 years of ownership, to the end of the loan period. Each car will have 75K miles and the following expenses will have mounted:\

Volt

Fuel: $5355 (gas + electric)
Oil service:$120 (based on 21K miles of ICE use)
engine service: $0
Value loss: $13K (based on KBB projections)

Total Cost: $18,475
Cost per mile: $.25

Accord:

Fuel: $10,340
Oil service: $450
Engine service (plugs, tune, etc): $0 (change plugs at 90K, etc)
electricity: $0
Value Loss: $19K (based on 2008 price of $10K wholesale)

Total cost: $29,790
cost per mile: $.40

Advantage: Volt, $11,315

At ANY point, in the Volt (and any ICE PEV/ Hybrid) you're ahead of the regular gas ICE vehicle in value. It PAINS me to say that...it really does. I'm a big HP guy. Shit, I sold my 560 hp CTS-V and was looking at a CLK63 black series to replace it and end up in a friggin Volt...how did that happen? Cause
I'm cheap and realize that mission I'm doing with the car (or THAT car) is wrong...if I want a track car, like Everrett said, buy an everyday car that's efficient and comfy that I can do business in and if I want, I can still trade in HP stuff, which I've always done with my license. That won't change, but my attitude for what I drive personally has. We're talking a $2263 difference per year between the Accord (the class leader, really) and the volt...or better said, about $188/ month. That's a damn bike payment! That's not a small amount IMO and to waste that money simply because one wants the Accord more seems and *thinks* it will be better, seems a bit wasteful to me, in terms of the ROI on that $188/ month. An extended Volt warranty to 100K and 72 months is about $1800...which makes it every bit as reliable as the Accord through the 5 year period.

I'll take the Volt. And then I'll maybe not sell the 700hp 69' charger in inventory or one of the other rides. However, for a daily driver, what makes the most sense? Not using gas...that's what.

Killer post :thumbup
So how does it handle? Is it at least somewhat sporty? Better than an Accord/Camry at least?
 
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The ELR is just awesome looking. However, they're hinting at around a $60k starting price. Burst my bubble. Tesla price but not much faster than a Volt. Might as well just get the Volt and continue to laugh at Tesla owners that think they're somehow saving money.

Have you seen any total cost of ownership calculations of a Model S Performance to competitors like the BMW M5, Porsche Panamera S, or Audi S7? There are a few pretty detailed ones floating around the Tesla forums. Take a look, you might be surprised at the result. :thumbup

Please don't tell me you're going to try and compare a 7-passenger luxury sedan that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds to an Accord. That's about as honest as comparing a Prius to a Denali.
 
The Tesla Model-S is a 5 passenger Sedan...
 
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