MazdaSpeed3 vs WRX

[frozenuts]

I had an 02 WRX wagon that I would still have if it was not for the drunk driver that hit us head on at a combined speed of over 100mph in his dodge truck. My wife and I lived through it, and will always have a Subaru. We currently have an 05 Legacy GT.

 

[TheRobSJ]

If the OP was really happy with the Integra, why not continue on with the Honda reliability and go for a used RSX. I'm no fan of FWD but an RSX is certainly a fun car to drive. Especially on a tight mountain road. I took an RSX Type-S on 84 once and it felt like it was more capable through the S bends than my much more powerful Corvette. But if the desire is really for a a five door hatch/wagon...then yeah all these other suggestions are worthless.

 

[Cheyenne]

You are arguing semantics... Do you think that the current 997TT is just a heavy car?

You are right about comparing the same weight of AWD VS non AWD cars, I am used to thinking about it in terms of a similar model with or without.

But your STi only had better acceleration in the wet, correct? Or did AWD somehow help cornering and braking in the wet as well? If you pulled out the rear diff and driveshaft, and retuned the suspension (if needed) to accomodate the weight change, do you think it would corner and brake better or worse?

I do think the current Porsches are just heavy cars. To me, a 997TT is an awesome GT car, but I would prefer a GT3, which is significantly lighter. (although still on the heavy side) Cheaper too, also...RWD. I also would bet that your STi stomped the Exige because of better software. The Exige is the car I would really want if I had the means.

You also correctly point out that you and I have different ideas about street driving, but even when I'm keeping it legal/sane I feel every pound*, and exactly how much traction there is...I always like less of both. Feel is really important to me, and most people just want to feel like they are fast, or beat the next guy at the stoplight.


Alex, I think you should be worried about consequences in FWD cars...first of all, some of them are particularly nasty when they do let go, and secondly because if you are driving fast without always knowing exactly what will happen, before it does, based on your inputs, then you are asking for a surprise someday. If I were you, I would get the STi, and then spend some money on training, or go auto-Xing until you have a feel for the limits of the car and yourself. You'll be safer, have a blast doing it, and driving will be more fun for the rest of your life.




*OK, every 50 pounds, but still.

 

[Cheyenne]

What AWD car have you owned?

Never had one. Two sessions at Laguna Seca as a passenger in a '95 Carrera 4 (as well as the owner's comments, and talking with other people at the track with experience) convinced me that it was not for me.

Oh, I did test drive a WRX once, but it was so heavy and sloppy on it's suspension I didn't bother to wring it out...I had expected something different from all the glowing reviews. But then I was unimpressed by a 2004 base Corvette as well. They are nice cars, but they lack mean. I want a car I respect, not something I can slap around from the get go.

 

[Enchanter]

But your STi only had better acceleration in the wet, correct? Or did AWD somehow help cornering and braking in the wet as well? If you pulled out the rear diff and driveshaft, and retuned the suspension (if needed) to accomodate the weight change, do you think it would corner and brake better or worse?

Like I said in my post. If everything was equal, less weight is better.

My STi could be driven faster in wet conditions than a FWD or RWD car.

I do think the current Porsches are just heavy cars. To me, a 997TT is an awesome GT car, but I would prefer a GT3, which is significantly lighter. (although still on the heavy side) Cheaper too, also...RWD.

I guess that you have a magic number in your head of what a car is supposed to weigh.

I also would bet that your STi stomped the Exige because of better software. The Exige is the car I would really want if I had the means.

So now you ignore the extra 1600lbs of the STi? Software? You're fucking kidding right? Anything it takes to strengthen your position eh?

You also correctly point out that you and I have different ideas about street driving,

Obviously. One more example is the Exige. It is a terrible street car. Absolutely terrible in every sense of the word. The Exige was on the short list when I bought my current car. A five mile street drive was all it took. As a dedicated track car, they are pretty fun in spite of the lack of power. But there are better cars out there.

Never had one. Two sessions at Laguna Seca as a passenger in a '95 Carrera 4 (as well as the owner's comments, and talking with other people at the track with experience) convinced me that it was not for me.

Oh, I did test drive a WRX once, but it was so heavy and sloppy on it's suspension I didn't bother to wring it out...I had expected something different from all the glowing reviews. But then I was unimpressed by a 2004 base Corvette as well. They are nice cars, but they lack mean. I want a car I respect, not something I can slap around from the get go.

Oh shit, I forgot how these conversations end up going. I will do all I can to avoid engaging with you in the future. There is no point. Please continue in sharing your second hand opinions of cars you've got little to no experience with.

 

[nuclearalex]

If the OP was really happy with the Integra, why not continue on with the Honda reliability and go for a used RSX. I'm no fan of FWD but an RSX is certainly a fun car to drive. Especially on a tight mountain road. I took an RSX Type-S on 84 once and it felt like it was more capable through the S bends than my much more powerful Corvette. But if the desire is really for a a five door hatch/wagon...then yeah all these other suggestions are worthless.

Integra is a great car. so the first car I test drove was RSX. Then I drove RSX type S. RSX is really worse than integra LS in terms of handling. RSX type S is better. It is probably also just as super-reliable. But its kinda ugly. I mean not ugly but it doesn't have the "personality" like my old integra did in its old days... Besides if I was to get an RSX type-s I will end up going for another 9 years with that - 18 total years on basically the same car - kinda boring...

So I decided to move on

 

[nuclearalex]

I just test drove both WRX and mazdaspeed3 and for the 09 models that I test drove - there is no comparison. WRX is way faster in acceleration and stronger in turns.

Mazda3 was too easy to get to the point when it is about to skid (the car probably had bad or polished tires). Easier than my integra I would say. With a fwd I was still very comfortable in it and it is definitely faster than integra, even RSX type S but it is slower, I mean way slower than WRX.

Minuses of WRX: uglier interior than mazda (but I like the exterior of it though), 5 speed gearbox.

the guy at the dealership told me that one can change the exhaust and chip on WRX without voiding the warranty. Have you guys heard about it? Seems to me that it is hard to avoid voiding the warranty if you mess with the computer

 

[MSFIT]

Never had one. Two sessions at Laguna Seca as a passenger in a '95 Carrera 4 (as well as the owner's comments, and talking with other people at the track with experience) convinced me that it was not for me.

Oh, I did test drive a WRX once, but it was so heavy and sloppy on it's suspension I didn't bother to wring it out...I had expected something different from all the glowing reviews. But then I was unimpressed by a 2004 base Corvette as well. They are nice cars, but they lack mean. I want a car I respect, not something I can slap around from the get go.

Seriously?

How the hell can you make an educated argument if you haven't seen both sides of the argument for yourself? On top of that, you use the word "feel"..

Must be religious... or a politician..

 

[Med23]

Porsche GT2. If you can finance it, you can afford it.

 

[Cheyenne]

So now you ignore the extra 1600lbs of the STi? Software? You're fucking kidding right? Anything it takes to strengthen your position eh?

Software, meaning the driver. That would be you right? It was a compliment. I do not think that an STi would take an Exige with equal drivers. Maybe I'm confused about the power differential. Don't worry, it won't happen again.

There is no magic number that a car should weigh, just lighter is better, just like you said. I guess 0 could be nice, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. I used the example I did as a counterpoint to yours. I'm sure not the only person who thinks the 997TT has drifted from sports car to GT.

My CRX was a pretty bad street car too, and I got sick of that side of it sometimes. I still prefer that for most driving. If I had that car now I'd commute in that rather than the Stealth which has more power and tire. Maybe we just like different things in cars?

Your comment on being able to drive the STi faster in the wet was empty, you provided no actual information. Please do tell me what about AWD specifically allowed you to corner and brake better in the wet? That's right, nothing. You could accelerate better off corners, that is all. That does count for a lot, but at least be clear and precise. I have a lot of experience going faster than people who could get off corners quicker than I, but not get anything else done as well. Clearly this is not your experience.

Either you still really don't get my POV, or you just like to argue.

 

[Cheyenne]

Seriously?

How the hell can you make an educated argument if you haven't seen both sides of the argument for yourself? On top of that, you use the word "feel"..

Must be religious... or a politician..

How much driving time you have dude? I mean driving time pushing the limits of your car?

I'm willing to bet I have a lot more.

Feel meaning how the car feels..it's communication and responsiveness. If you don't feel what is happening with traction at the tires, how do you judge how hard you can corner, brake, or accelerate?

Guess what? I don't want a car with a 300Lb weight in the trunk either. AWD is fine for some people, but I don't want it.

 

[some_random_guy]

Never had one. Two sessions at Laguna Seca as a passenger in a '95 Carrera 4 (as well as the owner's comments, and talking with other people at the track with experience) convinced me that it was not for me.

Oh, I did test drive a WRX once, but it was so heavy and sloppy on it's suspension I didn't bother to wring it out...I had expected something different from all the glowing reviews. But then I was unimpressed by a 2004 base Corvette as well. They are nice cars, but they lack mean. I want a car I respect, not something I can slap around from the get go.

do you remember that whole argument we had a month ago or so, about AWD vs. FWD/RWD...

 

[MSFIT]

How much driving time you have dude? I mean driving time pushing the limits of your car?

I'm willing to bet I have a lot more.

Feel meaning how the car feels..it's communication and responsiveness. If you don't feel what is happening with traction at the tires, how do you judge how hard you can corner, brake, or accelerate?

Guess what? I don't want a car with a 300Lb weight in the trunk either. AWD is fine for some people, but I don't want it.

Highly doubt it...dude.

I'm not about to get in a pissing contest with you though.

How do you like bananas? (see I can do what you do too)

You are making comparison's without KNOWING what you are comparing against. I've tracked all platforms, each has its own character. But to say that AWD is only an advantage in DIRT is fucking retarded.

Not to mention the versatility of AWD in a street car. My evo could go track to street to snow, it would be a complete rubbing chewing slut on the track, to a comfortable ride up to tahoe.

Let's see an overpowered FWD 2200# HF do that.

The added weight of awd? I would bet that the drivetrain of an AWD car is within 100lbs of a RWD. And the ONLY "feel" you would notice of that unsprung weight is on take off's and hard braking, which in the case of evo's/wrx's you have power and big brakes.

One last HUGE plus, with little mods you can open up and STI/Evo to be more than enough for street use and, in my experience, no downtime. Can't say the same for my other track toys.

 

[Cheyenne]

Not to mention the versatility of AWD in a street car. My evo could go track to street to snow, it would be a complete rubbing chewing slut on the track, to a comfortable ride up to tahoe.

Versatility = compromise.

Most people want that in street cars, so pick your poison. Sure it's nice to have a comfortable ride, but a car with a less comfortable ride might hand you your ass at the track. Same less confortable car to Tahoe, a rotten trip.

I personally would like to drive a car without many compromises, I really really like driving, and like pushing it. When you push, you feel every little thing that is holding you back right?

However, if someone, just one person, could please tell me how AWD helps increase corner speed? I would really love to know...



Some Random Guy: I forgot whatever I said in that thread. I hate AWD so much as a concept it's hard for me to think straight talking about it.

 

[Mike T]

totally different car.....WRX STi *i personally like the 2004/2005 Gen*

love the freakin tone it shoots off from its HO-engine....

or the rival to Scooby....the Evo....another fun car

 

[some_random_guy]

Some Random Guy: I forgot whatever I said in that thread. I hate AWD so much as a concept it's hard for me to think straight talking about it.

If you despise it so much, then why give your opnion on it, its nothing more than a biased opinion, your facts arent even clearly stated nor are they backed up with any logical information, you just give him your opinion on it, just because you might not like something, doesnt mean everyone else wont like it, by the way it was your taurus on Highway 17, that was what the topic was about

 

[some_random_guy]

totally different car.....WRX STi *i personally like the 2004/2005 Gen*

love the freakin tone it shoots off from its HO-engine....

or the rival to Scooby....the Evo....another fun car

I think the OP was talking about the sti, and out of it and the evo, the sti would be a better choice, the evo is more fitted for the track, where as the sti is better for the street, and plus the should this guy really be driving cars like these, I mean he did state that he isnt a good driver, wouldnt a car like this be beyond his skill level

 

[Cheyenne]

If you despise it so much, then why give your opnion on it, its nothing more than a biased opinion, your facts arent even clearly stated nor are they backed up with any logical information

Fact: A differential and driveshaft that are there weigh more than ones that are not there.

Logical Information: A heavier car cannot handle as well, other things being equal. It also has worse braking performance.

Opinion: Driving heavier cars is not as much fun.

Question: If you are cornering at the limit of traction of both the front and rear wheels in an AWD car and you increase the power past the limit of grip, will one end possibly break free before another? Or will they always break free together, ensuring no surprise? If they don't break free together, it would seem that AWD could introduce an inconsistency to the handling that otherwise would not be there.

 

[some_random_guy]

Fact: A differential and driveshaft that are there weigh more than ones that are not there.

Logical Information: A heavier car cannot handle as well, other things being equal. It also has worse braking performance.

Opinion: Driving heavier cars is not as much fun.

Question: If you are cornering at the limit of traction of both the front and rear wheels in an AWD car and you increase the power past the limit of grip, will one end possibly break free before another? Or will they always break free together, ensuring no surprise? If they don't break free together, it would seem that AWD could introduce an inconsistency to the handling that otherwise would not be there.

your fact makes no sense, obviously itll weigh more, why say it wont, everyone knows AWD has more weight, no one is arguing that

you logical info is also wrong, BMW's are very heavy cars, yet they have some of the best handling of any car, weight may play a factor in handling, but engineering and designing also plays a significant part. As for braking, do you honestly think car companies would create cars with poor breaking? plus ABS was invented for a reason

the answer to your question, is it depends on the car first off, cars like a skyline gtr have a system which balance out the power outout to the rear and front wheels, i believe the evo and sti have similar concepts to that, as do most AWD's, those that do not however, it depends one where most of the weight is, say for example you have a car where the engine is mounted in the front, then most of the weight will be in the front meaning the rear will break out first, or if you have a car like the porsche 911 AWD, where the engine is in the back, then the front will break out first, since most of the weight is distributed in the back, although, most AWD are balanced, or very close to it

 

[Cheyenne]

your fact makes no sense, obviously itll weigh more, why say it wont, everyone knows AWD has more weight, no one is arguing that

you logical info is also wrong, BMW's are very heavy cars, yet they have some of the best handling of any car, weight may play a factor in handling, but engineering and designing also plays a significant part. As for braking, do you honestly think car companies would create cars with poor breaking? plus ABS was invented for a reason

Very few, if any, production AWD cars are light. By light I mean at least under 2800 Lbs. The only really light sports cars available at all are the lotus, the Miata and those various exposed formula type deals. (Which are really what I would want, but a Lotus would be a nice practical compromise.)

BMW's do not handle well. No I have not driven one, but I've had them attempt to fuck with the Race Taurus and I can see their obvious weight issue. I may have driven one on an auto-X type course once, but it didn't stand out among the other pigs. I have different standards than most I realize. I was also spoiled by the CRX. 109HP goes a long way if you stay off the brake.

I'm not trying to say they aren't great, fast cars, they will just get punked on the track, or a back road, if driven against an equal driver in a sportier car. It's a fucking sedan or coupe. Nobody wants to compromise so they build a big fat car, and put big fat tires on it, and now you need power steering, and it's going to be slower to rotate that mass. It just feels better to dance with a lighter car...ever driven a gokart?

And really, BMW's do handle well, I was just making a point.

Edit: About ABS...that only keeps the brakes from locking...which I can do myself pretty well anyways, it doesn't actually slow you down any better than the car can slow with the brakes and tires it has. I would love to have a car with great brakes.

the answer to your question...

I thought Subie went back to plain mechanical 50/50 front/back? I haven't kept up recently. That makes sense about which end will cut loose first. Any answer for that from someone that's been there?