MotoGP Off-Season Thread

[sidewazzz]

Right, like you don't do the same to him.

Did I say I don't quote him?

 

[JO EBRMC]

I said one simple thing "Superbikes were doing CRT times back in 2008" and you guys get your panties in a wad.

No, we were actually just telling you that that is completely meaningless.

 

[sidewazzz]

No, we were actually just telling you that that is completely meaningless.

Your right CRT is meaningless and hopefully this nightmare will be over soon.

 

[JO EBRMC]

Your right CRT is meaningless and hopefully this nightmare will be over soon.

Do get a thrill out of being completely wrong and clueless? I can't figure out why you would keep posting utter nonsense otherwise.

 

[clutchslip]

The separate rules really aren't that significant. The only real difference is the fuel allowance and motor count. Those are important but are entirely cost-related - allowing smaller budgets to get on the grid. There are no technical differences in the rules.

They are to me. And I am sure they mean something to Crutchlow who ran out of petrol before getting a podium.

2.3.4 - Bore and Stroke. CRTs can use anything they want. Factories are stuck.

2.3.7 -Double the engines, except for a new factory rider, who gets nine (Funky rule). Double the engines is huge. Talk to a drag racer about engine life and hp.

2.6.5 Fuel 21 litters vs 24 liters. I call a 12.5% difference in fuel significant.
The best that I can figure, ( I actually ran some calcs), is that CRTs can run at optimum h.p. all race long. The factory bikes can not. In addition, a lean mixture is bad for engine longevity. Although, I am sure no one spends much time at 14.7 stoichiometric ratio or higher.

2.7.3.3 Carbon fiber brake size. (2012)

 

[JO EBRMC]

They are to me. And I am sure they mean something to Crutchlow who ran out of petrol before getting a podium.

Crutchlow running out of fuel has nothing to do with CRT rules. His team miscalculated. Ask Spies about that. He probably still remembers Monza.

2.3.4 - Bore and Stroke. CRTs can use anything they want. Factories are stuck.

They can't use anything they want. They are controlled by the same rules as the factories: 81mm maximum bore.

The factories codified their existing agreement to not do any engine development (i.e. changing bore and stroke). Really, this is inconsequential since it doesn't touch electronics and no one has any reason to change bore and stroke - hey aren't at a competitive disadvantage.

2.3.7 -Double the engines, except for a new factory rider, who gets nine (Funky rule). Double the engines is huge. Talk to a drag racer about engine life and hp.

2.6.5 Fuel 21 litters vs 24 liters. I call a 12.5% difference in fuel significant.
The best that I can figure, ( I actually ran some calcs), is that CRTs can run at optimum h.p. all race long. The factory bikes can not. In addition, a lean mixture is bad for engine longevity. Although, I am sure no one spends much time at 14.7 stoichiometric ratio or higher.

Engine limits and fuel limits were pushed through by the factories and the relaxing of them for CRTs was entirely a cost issue and not a competition issue. The factories want to keep dumping money into engine development under more extreme condition.

Neither of these rules have ANY effect on competition and they certainly do not constitute a separate class.

2.7.3.3 Carbon fiber brake size. (2012)

I can't find anything about this. Can you clarify and maybe explain why it is significant?


I also have to wonder why any of this matters? The 4-stroke era brought a bunch of rules with them that limited what could be run. Now that Dorna is removing some of those limitations, the class is somehow corrupted? Why weren;t people complaining about this problem in the 90s?

 

[clutchslip]

From the 2013 rule book:

2.4.3.1
In the MotoGP class the engine bore and stroke for each MSMA
manufacturer is fixed for the seasons 2012, 2013, 2014.
Each MSMA manufacturer must declare to the Technical Director
their prototype engine bore and stroke for the 2012 season, and
these dimensions may not be changed before the end of the 2014
season.
CRT teams are not covered by this regulation.

How much clearer can it be? CRT teams are NOT covered by this regulation.
Aprilia, et al, can develop internals all they want.

2.4.3.3
1.) The number of engines available for use by each rider is limited to 5 engines per permanent contracted rider for all the scheduled races of the season....
b) Permanent contracted riders entered by a CRT; limited to12 engines for all the scheduled races of the season.

You don't think that the factories have to de-tune to maintain reliability? I sure do. Ducati and Lorenzo could have had problems last year, and they had more engines.

2.4.4.5 Fuel Tanks
b) The maximum fuel tank capacity for motorcycles entered by a CRT can
be changed during the season by a majority decision of the GPC, with
the aim of ensuring fair competition.

While YOU may not think the fuel matters, apparently the governing body does think it matters. Which is why they wrote the above. And as I have mentioned before, as soon as a CRT beats a satellite team this rule will be changed.

I cannot fathom how you continue to claim that there is no advantage for the CRT teams. I guess you are blinded by the big awesome grid of TWO TIER racers.

 

[JO EBRMC]

From the 2013 rule book:

2.4.3.1
In the MotoGP class the engine bore and stroke for each MSMA
manufacturer is fixed for the seasons 2012, 2013, 2014.
Each MSMA manufacturer must declare to the Technical Director
their prototype engine bore and stroke for the 2012 season, and
these dimensions may not be changed before the end of the 2014
season.
CRT teams are not covered by this regulation.

How much clearer can it be? CRT teams are NOT covered by this regulation.
Aprilia, et al, can develop internals all they want.

That is very different from "2.3.4 - Bore and Stroke. CRTs can use anything they want.". It also is only a rule because the factories wanted it in order to prevent a development war that was totally unnecessary.

2.4.3.3
1.) The number of engines available for use by each rider is limited to 5 engines per permanent contracted rider for all the scheduled races of the season....
b) Permanent contracted riders entered by a CRT; limited to12 engines for all the scheduled races of the season.

You don't think that the factories have to de-tune to maintain reliability? I sure do. Ducati and Lorenzo could have had problems last year, and they had more engines.

You think it makes fuck all difference? The factories know they can make it through the season on the motors they have and they are still able to put the money into the them to get more HP than they need and more than the CRTs can ever get.

2.4.4.5 Fuel Tanks
b) The maximum fuel tank capacity for motorcycles entered by a CRT can
be changed during the season by a majority decision of the GPC, with
the aim of ensuring fair competition.

While YOU may not think the fuel matters, apparently the governing body does think it matters. Which is why they wrote the above. And as I have mentioned before, as soon as a CRT beats a satellite team this rule will be changed.

I cannot fathom how you continue to claim that there is no advantage for the CRT teams.

You haven't followed this debate very well. The point of the rule is that if the CRTs find themselves needing fuel, the rules will be changed to give them more.

This rule is in response to the factories creating an idiotic fuel rule in the first place and then refusing to let go of it. Dorna has wanted it gone for years.

If the CRTs have such a big advantage as a result of this, why are they down on horsepower?

I guess you are blinded by the big awesome grid of TWO TIER racers.

I don't think you know what tiered racing means. The rules are the same for factories and privateers with the exception of a small set of cost-control rules that have zero effect on the results.

 

[Raider]

So on asphaltandrubber.com they are talking about a rumor that Casey is going to wildcard Philip Island and possibly Motegi. And their closer to that article, they just need Casey to deny it so everyone will know its true

 

[Kurosaki]

I got 50 dollars that says he won't.

 

[clutchslip]

I don't think you know what tiered racing means. The rules are the same for factories and privateers with the exception of a small set of cost-control rules that have zero effect on the results.

The rules are DIFFERENT. That is TWO TIER racing. You are really something.

 

[Loki1000R]

i like reading this stuff

 

[JO EBRMC]

The rules are DIFFERENT. That is TWO TIER racing. You are really something.

Tiered racing is when the rules dictate limits on classes that intentionally put them on a slower pace. The higher tiers are less limited.

What we have in MotoGP are rules that make it more difficult for the top teams to compete while technical specifications are the same . That is absolutely not tiered racing any more than the equivalency rules in WSBK make that tiered racing.

 

[number_6]

i like reading this stuff

thats the craziest shit I've ever read in one of these piles.

 

[stangmx13]

Border line House? WTF. I suppose anyone with a different option then most should just STFU? Get real. House would just start in with shit with nobody even addressing him. Your boy JO seems to consistently quote me .

stop making shit up. theres only one person that posts in these threads that gets told to STFU, u at least submit new ideas almost every post.

the research im forced to do to backup my points is fun, so im ok w/ having to present a counter argument to your posts.

BTW I wasn't talking about WSBK I was talking about AMA Superbike. Because they race at the same track in the same weekend, same exact condition!. not in two different months. You can toss a lot of factors into the "lap times" but bottom line is CRT is like having a superbike on course with GP bikes. TO race fans like myself that just doesn't fly.

i included AMA and added WSBK because they are faster and still got beat at select tracks. if thats your bottom-line, u should say so, not dance around it.

Also I was one of the 1st people to say CRT was really a neg tool for Dorna to get Factory's to do something. I have very little belief that Dorna will turn this into a all CRT field. I said one simple thing "Superbikes were doing CRT times back in 2008" and you guys get your panties in a wad.

No, we were actually just telling you that that is completely meaningless.

+1

 

[stangmx13]

I think those concerns are fair. Another option, of course, is the spec ECU. Since any production racer motor will like have peak power sufficient to do the job, the work of making more of it usable will fall to the electronics.

I've never been fond of a spec ECU but it seriously cuts the value of pouring money into engine development. It sort of feels like leveling the playing field with a hammer rather than a scalpel.

are we sure the proddy motors will have sufficient peak power to do the job?and what about elsewhere in the rpm range?

a spec ECU would more stringently cap HP than how the bore/stroke limit was supposed too. but its not an actual cap. if the factories, through the use of their amazing tech, can produce more torque at max rpm... of course theyll have more peak power. and that says nothing about their gains elsewhere and their management of corner exit throttle.

a spec ECU would address everywhere else where the factories are gaining time though, so i agree with it there.

Another alternative outright homologation might be just extending the engine-sealing rules: manufacturers must submit all motors, including those for privateers, at the start of the season and those motors are distributed at random. That's not much different but it avoids the creation of even more complex rules.

ya thats what i meant when i said homologation, hehe. every team gets to run whatever engine they want, that engine just must be identical to any other by the supplier. id think it would actually make the job rly simple for the factories. produce XX motors of the same spec over the winter, done and done, maybe around 40. hopefully we get this rule for GP and Moto2 within a few years.

of course, this is also the best route to ditch the spec tire. isnt AUS SBK doing this now?

personally, i think Carmelo already knows about all this and is just biding his time.

 

[JO EBRMC]

personally, i think Carmelo already knows about all this and is just biding his time.

Agreed. Despite BLS's drivel (which, I'd suggest, could be directed word for word at himself) , Ezpeleta has shown a fair amount of wisdom in every move since gaining control of the rules.

 

[stangmx13]

Agreed. Despite BLS's drivel (which, I'd suggest, could be directed word for word at himself) , Ezpeleta has shown a fair amount of wisdom in every move since gaining control of the rules.

ya, i think a lot of ppl mix up rules imposed by the factories and rules imposed by Carmelo. IMO, almost every rule Carmelo has imposed has improved GP in some way compared to not having said rule (i rly hope some detractors jump on this so the thread gets another 10pages).

Carmelo rules, positive effect:
- 1000cc = fuck ya!
- frozen engine bore/stroke = reduced factory cost, ie Carmelo has more $$ for other things
- 81mm bore from a few years ago = gave teams time to develop engines before development freeze, did nothing at the time so im stretching
- CRT added to grid = new teams in paddock that will strengthen the class no matter where the rules go, more than 12 bikes on track
- Dorna-spec electronics = free top of the line electronics for all, reduced cost
- Moto2 = chassis-builder infrastructure, fuck ya! made Moto3 possible.
- Moto3 = chassis-builders w/ multiple engines, fuck ya! proof-of-concept for CRT
- spec tire* = improved racing in an economy that needed it

Carmelo rules, no/negative effect:
- Rookie rule = did nothing
- testing limits, was this Carmelo??

Factory rules a lot of ppl dont like:
- 800cc
- fuel limits
- engine limits

*IMO, has outlived usefulness...

ill rem more later.

 

[littlebeast]

The rules are DIFFERENT. That is TWO TIER racing. You are really something.

you are pissing in the wind dude. the last word has been carved in stone. anyone with a thought otherwise is just scribbling. on another note - toward another, it must feel awesome to be so fucking right. at least in your own mind.

 

[Tharkûn]

So on the subject of racing, I say Fenati surprises everyone and takes the Moto3 championship over Vinales. Who wants to put 5 E-hobo dollars on it?