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Retail giants are blaming their lower profits on theft...

byke said:
They being people that think you can fix theft with hugs.
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I don't know where to find the data on retail theft specifically, but I was poking around recently for other reasons and in general the data shows that those liberal "hug a thug" blue states mostly have lower crime rates (especially violent crime) than law and order red states. Even if retail theft is higher here in CA (doubt it is), I wouldn't trade that for our way lower violent crime rate. It doesn't fit the narrative, but NYC is actually safer than many rural areas.

In the very big picture, retail theft is a pretty shitty way to make a living unless your a cartel at the top of the food chain, so it's not like people are passing up good living wage jobs to jack product from walgreens, it's a wee bit more complicated than that, and the solutions are also going to be complicated.

Also, for everyone who says its a failure of modern morals...the Boomers where one of the most crime prone generations in modern American history when they were in there peak crime committing years. The 70s-early 90s where way, way worse than today for all types of crime.

Admin Edit: A couple of minor strikes to keep the political part in check. Just for your information. Thanks for listening. :laughing
 
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byke said:
As a metaphor, it kinda is. What we tend to do now is go soft on crime punishment because we feel bad for not doing enough for crime prevention, because we're shortsighted bozos that lack the wisdom to see more than than what's right in front of us. We go soft on crime punishment to make ourselves feel better, even though it's worse for everyone in the long run, kinda like giving hobos drug/alcohol money. That's a feel good effort for us, which is also a harmful enabler for them. Going soft on crime punishment may make sense at some point, like once there's a kickass system in place to create opportunities and cram work skills into every person, but until then, it's an enabler that's reflective of our failings.
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MENTUL HELP WANTERD!

stangmx13 said:
Got any studies to support your point? Do stiffer consequences for theft decrease theft in a statistically significant way? Are there any other factors that produce a larger increase or decrease in theft?

I agree with the opinion that stiffer consequences will have some impact on theft. Id guess that it's not a large effect.
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There are people who spend their entire lives studying and arguing for both sides of this debate. I'm sure we've both done our own confirmation-biased research:twofinger

I agree with Byke that education is the #1 deterrent (it is also probably the biggest challenge we face as a non-homogenous society.) There is also a lot of evidence that one of the biggest deterrents for crimes such as these comes in the perception that you'll be caught. Not necessarily that you'll go to jail, or lose a hand- Just the idea that you'd not get away with it.
Which is exactly the opposite of where we've gone with our current stance.
We could spend years arguing correlation/causation, but I'm planning to do like these stores asap- pack my shit and go somewhere where they believe in law enforcement and leave these "justice reforms" behind:teeth
 
msethhunter said:
No, nothing is being done about it…well, nothing with any teeth anyway.
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In CA, "mob" shoplifting is a felony. Whether they're being prosecuted as such, I can't say.

I would hope they would round up some of the perpetrators of these things, offer them reduced charges and then go after the other ones with the harder felony convictions.

Simply, let the groups know that, you're caught early, you'll get a lighter punishment, when you rat the others out, and let the group know that they're is real incentive and they're in real trouble when they do get ratted out.

It'll disrupt the trust necessary to pull these things off.
 
I wouldn't cry if Dollar Tree or all these types of stores failed. They weren't crying when they were putting ma a pa grocers out of business. And they sell the worst quality of shit possible, in the worst packaging.
 
“This is very sophisticated local, state, national and transnational organizations, organized not just to steal at the store level, but throughout the entire supply chain ... on the docks, on trucks, off ships, through containers, on the railways. This is a really persistent problem and it’s across the supply chain,”
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https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/18/its-not-people-shoplifting-why-retails-focus-is-organized-crime.html

stangmx13 said:
Got any studies to support your point? Do stiffer consequences for theft decrease theft in a statistically significant way? Are there any other factors that produce a larger increase or decrease in theft?

I agree with the opinion that stiffer consequences will have some impact on theft. Id guess that it's not a large effect.
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Either the line is being let out or pulled in. It seems logical that locking offenders up will not allow them to steal while locked up, but they'll likely return to a life of crime on their release due to the same (low) skillsets and lack of opportunity. Sentences should be based on meeting "graduation" requirements from incarceration for non violent crimes, or lengthy sentences if req's aren't met.

I'm in favor of turning out all parolees with the opportunity to be paid informants (ran through the parole officer). These programs should be taught and pushed on inmates before release. This will have the effect of either intel gathering, or fomenting distrust of former inmates in the criminal world/ organizations. Win/ win.

stangmx13 said:
What ideas do you have for crime prevention?
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Frontier justice. That'll being the shoppers in, if for nothing more, the entertainment!

byke said:
Education all the things, including trades. There's just no way that a smart and healthy nation doesn't kick ass, directly or indirectly(i.e problem solving).
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These criminals aren't uneducated. It's just that their trade is stealing...and they're good at it. See my suggestion above: incarcerate and pay them to inform. Make this well know to the entire country. Cheaper than recidivism and spoils them as "trustworthy" to the criminal organizations.
 
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bpw said:
I don't know where to find the data on retail theft specifically, but I was poking around recently for other reasons and in general the data shows that those liberal "hug a thug" blue states mostly have lower crime rates (especially violent crime) than law and order red states. Even if retail theft is higher here in CA (doubt it is), I wouldn't trade that for our way lower violent crime rate. It doesn't fit the narrative, but NYC is actually safer than many rural areas.
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:thumbup
 
I had a thought…

Those of you who think punishment should be severe for small thefts, have you ever done work for cash of fudged your taxes a little bit? Maybe you wrote a low selling price last time you bought a bike? That is a far more direct theft from the larger society that shoplifting a few bucks worth of stuff from a private company, would you take the punishment you are suggesting if you have?
 
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First, are those the only two choices, harsh punishments versus nothing? That sucks that the middle ground is dead right off the bat, but private sales tax on something that 99% of time a person is taking a loss on and is not allowed to reduce their income by that loss, when sales tax at the for-profit end has most likely already been paid, just so the dmv can endlessly tax you based on the value of something, as if a $100k car somehow does more damage to roads than a $1k car, or somehow creates more expense for the chp, is ridiculous. And to compare all that absurdity to grabbing merchandise off a shelf and running out the door with it....
 
byke said:
First, are those the only two choices, harsh punishments versus nothing? That sucks that the middle ground is dead right off the bat, but private sales tax on something that 99% of time a person is taking a loss on and is not allowed to reduce their income by that loss, when sales tax at the for-profit end has most likely already been paid, just so the dmv can endlessly tax you based on the value of something, as if a $100k car somehow does more damage to roads than a $1k car, or somehow creates more expense for the chp, is ridiculous. And to compare all that absurdity to grabbing merchandise off a shelf and running out the door with it....
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So, things you don't like paying for aren't theft if you steal them? You can come up with any justification you want, but its just as illegal as stealing from a store. I mean, Walmart is exists on the back of my taxes, can I go take shit from them because I don't think that is fair?

As for the middle ground, for almost any complex issue that is almost always the answer since simple solutions don't solve complex problems.
 
uncollected tax income doesn't have a cost basis associated w/ it. Inventory does. Every inventory item has to satisfy its cost basis on a sale to measure net 0 on an income statement. At most, uncollected taxes are shown as A/R item with no cost basis.

Uncollected taxes = inventory item sold @ cost basis.
 
Holeshot said:
uncollected tax income doesn't have a cost basis associated w/ it. Inventory does. Every inventory item has to satisfy its cost basis on a sale to measure net 0 on an income statement. At most, uncollected taxes are shown as A/R item with no cost basis.

Uncollected taxes = inventory item sold @ cost basis.
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The tax money has to come from somewhere, so we all make up for the unpaid taxes via the taxes we pay, I can make a strong argument that unpaid taxes have a higher level of harm to society as a whole than petty theft from a private entity.

In your example, the cost basis is the public services we all use such as roads. There is only zero cost basis if you assume all govt services are free to provide.
 
stangmx13 said:
You see how the last part of your paragraph shows why the first part may not work all that well?

What's your proposal for convicting criminals for these kinds of theft with today's resources and legal system? It'll probably need to be cheaper for the retailers than the profit lost. Who knows what sort of cost the local govt will pay for this. And it'd be cool if your solution didn't have a noticeable false positive rate and wasn't racist. But all that sounds like a pipedream.
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You know what I do when I don’t want to get my ass beat? I don’t FAFO. You know what I do when I don’t want to get arrested? I don’t FAFO. You know what I don’t really care about? People who FAFO over and over and over and over and over again then cry about “being a victim of the system!” Seems like your idea of preventing this kind of thing with hugs and rainbows…:ISN’T WORKING! So, unleash the Kraken! As in heads be kraken! Sentences be kraken, and start making examples of people. The proof is in the “the just need to be shown some compassion” mentality. ENOUGH! FUCKEN ENOUGH ALREADY! Your city is turning to shit, some literal and some figuratively, right in front of you.


Racist? GTFO. Enough with assigning blame to a race. Stop. It is part and parcel of what’s got us here today. Quit telling a certain race that because they’re a certain race, they have it harder. You’re putting them at a disadvantage right off the rip. ENOUGH!

Byke, that was almost a meltdown. Have fun with it! :party
 
msethhunter said:
You know what I do when I don’t want to get my ass beat? I don’t FAFO. You know what I do when I don’t want to get arrested? I don’t FAFO. You know what I don’t really care about? People who FAFO over and over and over and over and over again then cry about “being a victim of the system!” Seems like your idea of preventing this kind of thing with hugs and rainbows…:ISN’T WORKING! So, unleash the Kraken! As in heads be kraken! Sentences be kraken, and start making examples of people. The proof is in the “the just need to be shown some compassion” mentality. ENOUGH! FUCKEN ENOUGH ALREADY! Your city is turning to shit, some literal and some figuratively, right in front of you.


Racist? GTFO. Enough with assigning blame to a race. Stop. It is part and parcel of what’s got us here today. Quit telling a certain race that because they’re a certain race, they have it harder. You’re putting them at a disadvantage right off the rip. ENOUGH!

Byke, that was almost a meltdown. Have fun with it! :party
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It's not really a matter of opinion that our current justice system rather frequently gets the wrong person, and that wrong person is a lot more likely to be a black guy, so yeah, race can make a serious difference in outcomes and can't be ignored.

Serious question, how many innocents are you willing to make examples of? There is no free ride here, the harder you crack down, the more people get punished incorrectly. What do you consider an acceptable level of false positives?
 
bpw said:
The tax money has to come from somewhere, so we all make up for the unpaid taxes via the taxes we pay, I can make a strong argument that unpaid taxes have a higher level of harm to society as a whole than petty theft from a private entity.

In your example, the cost basis is the public services we all use such as roads. There is only zero cost basis if you assume all govt services are free to provide.
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Point taken for state taxes. Federal taxes are really an extension of Quantitative tightening or easing. If the Fed.gov doesn't take in enough tax revenue, they simply print more. More dollars means more wealth inequality and inflationary pressure(s). So, in effect, not paying one's taxes fucks the poor more!

Really tho; they simply print more when it's needed. Tax revenue has no bearing on the fed budget given they haven't balanced the budget in over 22 years.
 
msethhunter said:
Dude, you need to find new News sources. Retail theft is up by anywhere from 25 to more than 50%, depending on where it’s happening. It cost over $125B last year, and cost an estimated 3/4 of a million jobs.

Back in January, CNN headlines said “Stores say shoplifting is a national crisis. The numbers don’t back it up”. Then, barely two months later, “Why retail theft is soaring: inflation, the economy – and opportunity”.

The solution is simple. Increase the penalty for stealing, and lower that bar so basically anything but petty theft is a felony. Steal a pack of gum, restitution, a fine, community service. Steal a power tool from Home Depot, a felony, restitution, a fine, prison time, parole. Theft would stop real quick. “You man, Johnny got locked up for 6 months for getting caught stealing that power drill from Lowe’s. You believe that shit!?” Allow loss prevention the tools to handle theft, and the company to back them up when they do. They’ve turned into living security cameras, where you just watch someone steal your shit, and leave with it, then when the cops show up 15 minutes after the thieves have left, they shrug and say “We’ll, all we have is a grainy picture that looks like every other dude walking around the store right now.”

“Flash mobs” or whatever you want to call it of looters/robbers, is all over the news. There was three in less than a week in LA, stealing almost 3/4 of a million.

Yeah, it’s a problem. No, nothing is being done about it…well, nothing with any teeth anyway. People need to be made examples of, that’s how society learns.
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I would say perhaps it is more complex than that. Singapore is known to be one of the safest nations on earth, in no small part because of their draconian Law Enforcement policies that include public beatings for petty offenses. Nevertheless, they are seeing a drastic increase in property Crime in the last year or so.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...-shoplifting-molest-voyeur-spf-police-3279781

Certainly however they have a much lower occurrence per capita than us.

I think the conclusion that must be drawn there is that the issue is far more complicated than just a strong enforcement deterrent.
 
Johndicezx9 said:
https://www.ktvu.com/news/85k-in-st...k-hRX50lMvUwtRPvCD2mCEvmcL2l081h3aDYUw3CVCFBA
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"Months long investigation" and solid collars, seems like LE is doing its job.

Do these major retailers admit to the huge chunk online retail took out of them when they dragged their feet to get into the game? Almost everything we bought off the shelf at a store like that is delivered now. Automatically in some cases.

$85K indeed pales in comparison to the dollars individuals, corps, and LLCs defraud each year. It's a cry for help and a predictable dog whistle to self-professed law and order folks who never ran out of formula for their baby because of price-fixing.
 
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