Rossi: "MotoGP is boring..."

[RaptorFA]

Ah, the weight thang again! OK, so Pedrosa weighs 31 pouinds less than Lorenzo. What happens if you flip that and suddenly Lorenzo weighs 31 pounds less? Are you saying nothing changes?

I don't think it would make a remarkabe difference, but I think it might make a slight difference...

 

[JO EBRMC]

You have 100lbs and 160lbs riders. It's no secret that a motorcycle will push one faster and quicker then the other.

If this was drag racing, I'd care.

 

[stangmx13]

How much did Marco weigh?

more than the 250 he won on. that hair, while the source of all his power, was an anchor.

its easier for riders that complain to lean-out than it is to get the rules changed.

 

[sidewazzz]

Rossi seemed to handle it just fine lol meanwhile Elias, a midget on his own right, did SO well lol

I'm not saying its the difference from winning and not. Fact is a rider the weighs less will be pushed faster and quicker than a rider that is heaveyer. There maybe other advatages and maybe disadvantages. Considering an extra 13 pounds seems to be the difference between checa dominating and the added weight and power seems to be the difference from stoner dominating or not. Let's not also forget Rossi is reffered to as one of the greatest riders of all time so it wouldnt be such a crazy idea that midget theory is something he can ride around...

 

[sidewazzz]

If this was drag racing, I'd care.

Hahaha that's why you crack me up. In a race its a drag race to in and out of every corner.

 

[JO EBRMC]

Hahaha that's why you crack me up. In a race its a drag race to in and out of every corner.

I would say that is a huge over-simplification but the fact it, it isn't even correct since the into and out of every corner is a matter of traction and suspension not hp. It is only a WFO when the TC has stopped interfering that a riders weight will impact hp and that is such a minute percentage of the race, I'm not going to waste any time worrying about it.

 

[sidewazzz]

I would say that is a huge over-simplification but the fact it, it isn't even correct since the into and out of every corner is a matter of traction and suspension not hp. It is only a WFO when the TC has stopped interfering that a riders weight will impact hp and that is such a minute percentage of the race, I'm not going to waste any time worrying about it.

I never said HP matter in a corner but since every corner isn't the same it does matter more than you.think it would. But ill also let you in on a little secret 7.3lbs or something like that is equal to 1hp and tc or suspension doesn't make up for it.

 

[clutchslip]

I never said HP matter in a corner but since every corner isn't the same it does matter more than you.think it would. But ill also let you in on a little secret 7.3lbs or something like that is equal to 1hp and tc or suspension doesn't make up for it.

Weight always matters in racing. Otherwise 3000 lb race cars wouldn't bother trying to kill 10 lbs, here, and 5 lbs, there.

However, this MotoGP thing is sort of unique only because of the traction issues. Remember that Stoner said he only got to WOT at Laguna in two spots and ran around at about 1/2 throttle. Now, that's some extra hp, right there.

If Dani weighs thirty pounds less than Jorge, and if your number is correct of 7.3, (which is about what I remember), then there is a lousy 4 hp advantage difference. Considering we assume these bikes make over 230 hp, that is about 1.5% difference on a tiny bike. TC could make up for that, easily. Hell, 1 millisecond in earlier throttle will beat that 4 hp.

 

[louemc]

Weight always matters in racing. Otherwise 3000 lb race cars wouldn't bother trying to kill 10 lbs, here, and 5 lbs, there.

However, this MotoGP thing is sort of unique only because of the traction issues. Remember that Stoner said he only got to WOT at Laguna in two spots and ran around at about 1/2 throttle. Now, that's some extra hp, right there.

If Dani weighs thirty pounds less than Jorge, and if your number is correct of 7.3, (which is about what I remember), then there is a lousy 4 hp advantage difference. Considering we assume these bikes make over 230 hp, that is about 1.5% difference on a tiny bike. TC could make up for that, easily. Hell, 1 millisecond in earlier throttle will beat that 4 hp.

Yep And....(correct me if I'm wrong) the race teams tweeks of the management maps (even though GPS is doing it's work) would make for a difference that would out-do that Weight/HP difference, as well.
(everything else being equal)

 

[sidewazzz]

Weight always matters in racing. Otherwise 3000 lb race cars wouldn't bother trying to kill 10 lbs, here, and 5 lbs, there.

However, this MotoGP thing is sort of unique only because of the traction issues. Remember that Stoner said he only got to WOT at Laguna in two spots and ran around at about 1/2 throttle. Now, that's some extra hp, right there.

If Dani weighs thirty pounds less than Jorge, and if your number is correct of 7.3, (which is about what I remember), then there is a lousy 4 hp advantage difference. Considering we assume these bikes make over 230 hp, that is about 1.5% difference on a tiny bike. TC could make up for that, easily. Hell, 1 millisecond in earlier throttle will beat that 4 hp.

You are comparing midget to semi midget in midget theory lol. Where the difference starts in Weight and hp is probably something only experts or the riders themselves know. But you are also assuming the bikes make equal power and tc are equal as well.

 

[clutchslip]

You are comparing midget to semi midget in midget theory lol. Where the difference starts in Weight and hp is probably something only experts or the riders themselves know. But you are also assuming the bikes make equal power and tc are equal as well.

No I am not. Geez. How do you make a point without a common reference? Weren't you assume hp was equal when you said weight mattered? If not, then you didn't make any point, except that h.p. wins. I said TC could make up for that 4hp. Doesn't that mean that better TC or earlier WOT beats the weight advantage? I thought that is what I said.

 

[stangmx13]

"7.3lbs (or wateva the stupid # is) = 1HP" is the stupidest oversimplification ever in motor racing and hardly applicable, esp to motorcycles. dont waste your breath.

really, if u want something to argue about, y not talk about how many hundredths Jorge loses under braking because hes heavier than Dani

 

[sidewazzz]

No I am not. Geez. How do you make a point without a common reference? Weren't you assume hp was equal when you said weight mattered? If not, then you didn't make any point, except that h.p. wins. I said TC could make up for that 4hp. Doesn't that mean that better TC or earlier WOT beats the weight advantage? I thought that is what I said.

The assuming part was mistaken In phone barfing. 4 HP advatage, while 4 may seem like a small number its still and advantage. Now if you really consider today the hondas acelleration escpecially up hill is 2nd to none. The extra 4 due to rider weight is more than welcomed.

 

[sidewazzz]

"7.3lbs (or wateva the stupid # is) = 1HP" is the stupidest oversimplification ever in motor racing and hardly applicable, esp to motorcycles. dont waste your breath.

really, if u want something to argue about, y not talk about how many hundredths Jorge loses under braking because hes heavier than Dani

My understanding of the concept is... On a tyno your bike says it does 200hp but its not pushing anything

Once you introduce extra weight (rider) it loses its effectiveness. That it had before the rider we introduced. A way to get that power back is to simple have your.rider weigh less.

Like i said its not a mistery about weight. I may believe in some points of midget theory but i dont think its as great of a factor to determine who wins and doesnt. Now if we get riders in the 200lbs range then my opinion would change.

 

[Kurosaki]

Small rider doesn't have as much to put over the front end to keep the wheel down.

electonics working harder to keep the bike in shape.

stfu midget theory

 

[aciurczak]

But ill also let you in on a little secret 7.3lbs or something like that is equal to 1hp and tc or suspension doesn't make up for it.

If Dani weighs thirty pounds less than Jorge, and if your number is correct of 7.3, (which is about what I remember), then there is a lousy 4 hp advantage difference.

That's not a secret, it's just bad math. There's no magical pounds to hp calculation. The actual difference varies depending on the starting weight of the bike, and its current hp.

ex 1: 350 pound bike, 150 pound rider, 150 hp.

500 pounds of total weight, pushed by 150 hp. If you want to increase performance 1%, you need to lose 5 pounds. Or you need to add 1.5 hp. In this case, 1 hp = 3.3 pounds.

ex 2: 450 pounds bike 200 pound rider, 100 hp.

650 pounds total weight, pushed by 100 hp. If you want to increase performance 1%, you need to lose 6.5 pounds. Or you need to add 1 hp. In this case, 1 hp = 6.5 pounds. This is the one that is closest to the "secret", as it has been close to what a "standard" road bike has made for a decade or two, whether big-bore UJM, or even a modern 600.

ex 3: 700 pound bike, 200 pound rider, 75 hp.

900 pounds total weight, pushed by 75 hp. If you want to increase performance 1%, you need to lose 9 pounds. Or you need to add .75 hp. In this case, 1 hp = 12 pounds.

add some rough gp bike specs:

ex 4: 360 pound bike, 120 pound rider, 250 hp.

480 pounds total weight, pushed by 250 hp. If you want to increase performance 1%, you need to lose 4.8 pounds. Or you need to add 2.5 hp. In this case, 1 hp = 1.96 pounds.

 

[Spec-ECU]

This whole silliness about weight (which is not even the topic of the OP) only served to remind me of one of the commentary sessions in the last round, citing how amazing it was to have two very different motorcycles (RC213V vs. M1) being ridden by two very different riders (Pedrosa vs. Lorenzo) in two differing styles as needed by their respective machines.

Yet somehow they manage to turn in laps within tenths, if not hundredths of a second from one another.

So whether or not weight advantage/disadvantage makes a difference out there, these guys are competitive with one another despite of it.

 

[stangmx13]

My understanding of the concept is... On a tyno your bike says it does 200hp but its not pushing anything

Once you introduce extra weight (rider) it loses its effectiveness. That it had before the rider we introduced. A way to get that power back is to simple have your.rider weigh less.

Like i said its not a mistery about weight. I may believe in some points of midget theory but i dont think its as great of a factor to determine who wins and doesnt. Now if we get riders in the 200lbs range then my opinion would change.

your bike is "pushing" the weight of the dyno drum on the dyno. HP does not lose its effectiveness. it simply a measurement of power, watts. it does the same amount of Work for a given time no matter what its "doing".

whats absurd is applying a concrete number to the concept that its easier to accelerate a lighter weight than a heavier one. all engines make power in varying amounts at diff rpms and have diff gear ratios, so its impossible to make such a claim.

That's not a secret, it's just bad math. There's no magical pounds to hp calculation. The actual difference varies depending on the starting weight of the bike, and its current hp.

ex 1: 350 pound bike, 150 pound rider, 150 hp.

500 pounds of total weight, pushed by 150 hp. If you want to increase performance 1%, you need to lose 5 pounds. Or you need to add 1.5 hp. In this case, 1 hp = 3.3 pounds.

....

more oversimplification

power to weight ratio is not a valid concrete measurement of performance

say i have 2 bikes w/ 2 riders that are exactly the same weight and have the same drive/gear ratios. both have the same HP. one is tuned to maximize power from 50-75% of the rpm range and the other is tuned for max HP. will they accelerate from 30 to 100 in the same time?? hell no.

 

[JO EBRMC]

I never said HP matter in a corner but since every corner isn't the same it does matter more than you.think it would. But ill also let you in on a little secret 7.3lbs or something like that is equal to 1hp and tc or suspension doesn't make up for it.

As was pointed out, this is a major over simplification, however, that extra hp is only available and usable at WOT and at the top of the power curve which the bikes only spend a few seconds per lap at.

Small rider doesn't have as much to put over the front end to keep the wheel down.

Bigger rider also have more weight to keep the rear down under braking as well as more weight to hang off in the corners.

 

[aciurczak]

more oversimplification

Um, that was pretty much the point. There is no simple conversion factor from pounds to hp, as if there were some universal constant. To your point, even if there were such a constant, power to weight ratio isn't the only determinant of a motorcycle's performance on the track.