World swimming bans transgender women from competing

[msethhunter]

Technically it's a bunch of men arguing about a decision that a bunch of other men made about excluding a bunch of women from a women's space.

But yes, this is a time honored tradition with centuries of reinforcement.

A bunch of men arguing that a bunch of men shouldn’t be allowed to compete with their daughters, sisters and mothers in women’s sports.

 

[afm199]

Technically it's a bunch of men arguing about a decision that a bunch of other men made about excluding a bunch of biological menfrom a women's space.

But yes, this is a time honored tradition with centuries of reinforcement.

Fixed that for you. Seems like you just can't get your head around science.

 

[ScarySpikes]

You can try and paint me into the corner as bigot, but we have had this discussion more than once.

Fixed that for you. Seems like you just can't get your head around science.

It certainly seems like you are doing an good job painting yourself into the corner you are complaining about being in.

I posted a pretty long post looking at a lot of the best and most recent scientific studies on the issue. Feel free to refer back to them. See if any of them conclude that we shouldn't have trans women in sports, or if any of them, ever, refer to trans women as 'biological men'.

I will TL/DR it for you, they don't do either. They agree with me, or more accurately, I formed my opinions based on their conclusions. You are the one who isn't getting your head around the science. But, I believe in you, Ernie, I think you are a smart guy and you could read and understand all of those studies, understand what the data says and why the scientists make the conclusions that they do, if you really wanted to. I think you can paint yourself out of the corner you have painted yourself into.

 

[Climber]

SS, you are once again over-simplifying the situation.

You are leaving out the key phrase, 'given enough time', which isn't the case after just a year or even 3 years.

The person who triggered all of this competed as a man in college then competed as a woman while still in college, though she took a year off in the middle so after under 3 years she was full on competing as a woman.

Was that enough time for her advantage from growing up into adulthood as a male to be eliminated? The governing body for international swimming doesn't think so. You take the cheap and easy route of accusing them of being bigoted, but I really don't think they are. Perspectives may vary.

 

[afm199]

It certainly seems like you are doing an good job painting yourself into the corner you are complaining about being in.

I posted a pretty long post looking at a lot of the best and most recent scientific studies on the issue. Feel free to refer back to them. See if any of them conclude that we shouldn't have trans women in sports, or if any of them, ever, refer to trans women as 'biological men'.

I will TL/DR it for you, they don't do either. They agree with me, or more accurately, I formed my opinions based on their conclusions. You are the one who isn't getting your head around the science. But, I believe in you, Ernie, I think you are a smart guy and you could read and understand all of those studies, understand what the data says and why the scientists make the conclusions that they do, if you really wanted to. I think you can paint yourself out of the corner you have painted yourself into.

Yes, you have some psuedo science that says if you shoot enough juice into Kobe Bryant, he'll be the equal of a 4'9" girl and just the same.

I'm not the one painted in the corner. You are. You're conflating social and cultural mores with physical status. It's all about the feels for you. And to boot, you're painting me as a bigot. But I'm not one. You, on the other hand, I am pretty sure are. You hate anyone who disagrees with your psuedo scientific progressive jibberish. Let's try this one more time. Biological male≠biological female. There are hundreds of college level texts that you can read that will fill you in on what a biological male and female are. I suggest you read a few, and try to get that progressive infection out of your brain.

 

[ScarySpikes]

SS, you are once again over-simplifying the situation.

You are leaving out the key phrase, 'given enough time', which isn't the case after just a year or even 3 years.

The person who triggered all of this competed as a man in college then competed as a woman while still in college, though she took a year off in the middle so after under 3 years she was full on competing as a woman.

Was that enough time for her advantage from growing up into adulthood as a male to be eliminated? The governing body for international swimming doesn't think so. You take the cheap and easy route of accusing them of being bigoted, but I really don't think they are. Perspectives may vary.

It's pretty simple. FINA's decision does not agree with the conclusions of the best scientists on the issue, they won't show any of the data or decision making that they used to arrive at it, but claim that they did research so they don't get the excuse of not knowing the science, and the suggestion of a 'separate but equal' open category is insulting.

Yes, you have some psuedo science that says if you shoot enough juice into Kobe Bryant, he'll be the equal of a 4'9" girl and just the same.

I'm not the one painted in the corner. You are. You're conflating social and cultural mores with physical status. It's all about the feels for you. And to boot, you're painting me as a bigot. But I'm not one. You, on the other hand, I am pretty sure are. You hate anyone who disagrees with your psuedo scientific progressive jibberish. Let's try this one more time. Biological male≠biological female. There are hundreds of college level texts that you can read that will fill you in on what a biological male and female are. I suggest you read a few, and try to get that progressive infection out of your brain.

Yea, I just cited a bunch of 'pseudo scientific' peer reviewed scientific journal articles.

On biological sex, here is an article in well known spreader of pseudoscience, Scientific American about it.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

It just takes a little dip into talking about how complicated sex actually is biologically. If you actually want to understand what biologists think about sex, it's a pretty good place to start.

 

[Climber]

It's pretty simple. FINA's decision does not agree with the conclusions of the best scientists on the issue, they won't show any of the data or decision making that they used to arrive at it, but claim that they did research so they don't get the excuse of not knowing the science, and the suggestion of a 'separate but equal' open category is insulting.

Your disagreement is that they didn't come to the conclusion you wanted them to.

That's life.

 

[sidewazzz]

SS it's pretty simple

#1 women's player in the world probably greatest ever would be ranked like #400 in men's

#400 college ranked men's swimmer becomes #1 ranked women's swimmer in 1 year

15 year old boys soccer team beat our US women's soccer team/ we are taking teenagers beating professionals

Just because testosterone levels drop doesn't mean change hasn't already happened. Males create testosterone from a young age females don't. This is the exact reason men are by a far majority bigger and stronger than women at every age from 5 and up.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[afm199]

SS it's pretty simple

#1 women's player in the world probably greatest ever would be ranked like #400 in men's

#400 college ranked men's swimmer becomes #1 ranked women's swimmer in 1 year

15 year old boys soccer team beat our US women's soccer team/ we are taking teenagers beating professionals

Just because testosterone levels drop doesn't mean change hasn't already happened. Males create testosterone from a young age females don't. This is the exact reason men are by a far majority bigger and stronger than women at every age from 5 and up.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo[/YOUTUBE]

Noooo! If we shoot the right amount of magic juice into the athletes, they magically change from biological men to biological women! Why in an autopsy I am sure they would be identified as women. That's the funny part. In an autopsy with no knowledge of the social history of the person, they'd NEVER be identified as women, but men. Science. So funny.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Noooo! If we shoot the right amount of magic juice into the athletes, they magically change from biological men to biological women! Why in an autopsy I am sure they would be identified as women. That's the funny part. In an autopsy with no knowledge of the social history of the person, they'd NEVER be identified as women, but men. Science. So funny.

Any decent coroner would be able to identify a trans woman as a trans woman. They certainly don't look like men, and even if they've had bottom surgery, a neo vagina looks a bit different from a normal vagina.

Speaking of, since you brought it up earlier, have Kobe Bryant compete with a 4'9" girl, and the girl wins every time no matter how much HRT he has in him. I'm pretty sure HRT doesn't bring people back from the dead, no matter how magical the trans people I know say it is.

 

[afm199]

Any decent coroner would be able to identify a trans woman as a trans woman. They certainly don't look like men, and even if they've had bottom surgery, a neo vagina looks a bit different from a normal vagina.

Speaking of, since you brought it up earlier, have Kobe Bryant compete with a 4'9" girl, and the girl wins every time no matter how much HRT he has in him. I'm pretty sure HRT doesn't bring people back from the dead, no matter how magical the trans people I know say it is.

You win.

 

[budman]

 

[TylerW]

I do not find these sorts of concerted attempts to force a member to justify their character to be in good taste.

If you want to attack an issue, so be it, but no one here is under any responsibility to defend themselves or be accountable for their identity in such a fashion to the group.

AFM and I have disagreed on more than one thing over the years, but I'm good with him and all of y'all, even the usual suspects that so often disagree with my positions.

I think Ernie and I agree on more than we don't, and for the most part I understand the areas where we disagree. If I see something that sounds properly out of round, I'm gonna ask him about it, out of mutual respect. You and I go through this as well.

I'm not owed an explanation, but I'm still justified in asking for one. He's a good egg, and so are you, and its worth the risk of asking to get a better understanding.

 

[budman]

That is good communication.

No matter what we are a small band and listening and understanding others opinions is really valued by me.

It is the best course to having a good discussion and opening each other’s mind to other views and possible realities we never considered.

 

[tzrider]

I think Ernie and I agree on more than we don't, and for the most part I understand the areas where we disagree. If I see something that sounds properly out of round, I'm gonna ask him about it, out of mutual respect. You and I go through this as well.

I'm not owed an explanation, but I'm still justified in asking for one. He's a good egg, and so are you, and its worth the risk of asking to get a better understanding.

This is a good post and echoes something I've said in the past and try to live by: If someone says something that is offensive and seems out of character, we have a choice to either ask for clarification or act as if we have no history with the person and the last thing he said is all we have to go on.

There was a lot of that going on in this thread and a bunch of made up explanations to go with it. Thanks for being the guy who asked, "What the fuck?" That's an honest reaction to being surprised by a remark that seemed out of character from a person you know. It furthers a discussion instead of inventing nonsensical explanations for the comment.

 

[littlebeast]

Tired old men have seen the same old shit most of their life, and don't have the energy any more to pretend it's ok. Please see my previous post above this.
I'm being painted into the corner as bigot, and actually find it amusing and sad, as the people doing it are people I have some respect for. Simply put, I'm not parroting the Progressive line. I voted Democratic since LBJ and have supported liberal causes all my life. Biological men in women's sport doesn't happen to be one of them.

yes - this is exactly how it was explained to me. at the time i was full of piss and vinegar - fresh, seeing things that needed fixing, and wanting to change the world. and had a ‘nothing is impossible’ attitude. any attempt to temper my enthusiasm for change was confusing (and phenomenally frustrating) to me. at first it felt like a brick wall.

your comment about energy particularly resonates with me. where i was able to chart a path forward, i basically said to them - if you’re spent, teach me your knowledge, and i’ll provide the energy. it didn’t always work - but a few passed me their torch, which was an awesome lesson in trust.

and for what it’s worth, i don’t think for a second that you are a bigot. crusty old motherfucker - yes, absolutely lol, but bigot? no.

 

[Caddywumpus]

how about a compromise?

Create the unlimited class. No restrictions. All drugs are legal. Now see who the real champ is.

 

[littlebeast]

how about a compromise?

Create the unlimited class. No restrictions. All drugs are legal. Now see who the real champ is.

same as in every ultimate competition - godzilla.

 

[afm199]

yes - this is exactly how it was explained to me. at the time i was full of piss and vinegar - fresh, seeing things that needed fixing, and wanting to change the world. and had a ‘nothing is impossible’ attitude. any attempt to temper my enthusiasm for change was confusing (and phenomenally frustrating) to me. at first it felt like a brick wall.

your comment about energy particularly resonates with me. where i was able to chart a path forward, i basically said to them - if you’re spent, teach me your knowledge, and i’ll provide the energy. it didn’t always work - but a few passed me their torch, which was an awesome lesson in trust.

and for what it’s worth, i don’t think for a second that you are a bigot. crusty old motherfucker - yes, absolutely lol, but bigot? no.

Thanks for the delightful reply.

The crusty old motherfucker who was my mentor in my early working years was known as such. A lot of people were scared of him. He made my level of crust look like jellyfish on a scale that goes up to Mt. Everest of Granite. He called me "boy" with a small b for the first two years.

 

[sidewazzz]

how about a compromise?

Create the unlimited class. No restrictions. All drugs are legal. Now see who the real champ is.

You still run into the issue that a trans woman or would they be a trans man, IDK now and am very confused....

There probably wouldn't be enough to hold a class plus you can't run away from the fact Women on roids still wouldn't be able to compete psychically with men not on roids. A Trans women would still only be beating the natural women and would probable drop their mens ranking from 400 to like 700 since they have been taking hormone depressants for a year.