Free Racing at BW!

[Daredevil]

Funny, when you use the phrase "Far more production than any SV650 I have yet to see on the Prod grid", I believe you are stating that there isn't ANY truly production legal bike in that grid. Therefore, you are implying that everyone on that grid is cheating in some fashion or another. That is my take,am I wrong?

not how i took it, but i see how one might

 

[synfinatic]

I believe that you know how much we foster a family feeling in our pit? When you come in here spouting garbage, I will take offense.

Here's a tip: this thread isn't about you.

 

[#1 tuner]

It's also not about why new people don't want to race with the AFM.

 

[TWF]

So much love in this thread. Can't imagine why some people don't want to race with the AFM.

Funny how people spreading love accuse others of doing it

 

[Old Bike]

That is cheap, and where did you finish on that "gem"? As said before, the cost you spent has no correlation to the cost someone else spent on their bike.

If I can show up after not being on track for two years and podium on my Kawi 400, how do you think I might do on a built R6 cripple? For some it is as much about winning as just racing.

Some have plenty of money to purchase whatever they want and others don't. Fact is a 2016 R6 crippled and built to make as much Hp as possible with ohlins forks and lightweight wheels is legal for 450 SB. Any idea on what that would cost? Buying it from Graves would be about 32K, 40K if you went with a magnetti marelli system. Of course you'd still have to be able to ride it pretty well to get on the podium.

Yay but your fast It was funny every one was who's this guy and I was like he was 450 class champion the year I started riding. He's quick . Yes someone can in theory try to buy the class I just don't see it happening if you're going to do that why not go 600sbk or prod and get some real recognition. Still yes it could happen

 

[synfinatic]

Yay but your fast It was funny every one was who's this guy and I was like he was 450 class champion the year I started riding. He's quick . Yes someone can in theory try to buy the class I just don't see it happening if you're going to do that why not go 600sbk or prod and get some real recognition. Still yes it could happen

Because for some people winning 450SB is better then not winning 600SB.

 

[stangmx13]

Yay but your fast It was funny every one was who's this guy and I was like he was 450 class champion the year I started riding. He's quick . Yes someone can in theory try to buy the class I just don't see it happening if you're going to do that why not go 600sbk or prod and get some real recognition. Still yes it could happen

id bet that it WILL happen. as a class gains popularity, theres more chance for someone new to come in and buy a competitive advantage. sure uve got people racing on revalved forks. but if the class sticks around, someone eventually will spend ~$3000 on pressured fork cartridges that a modern 600 allows. they are Prod legal and dwarf the cost of the $1000 bike that just needed bodywork. then thinner head gasket and slotted cam sprockets will happen, etc etc. and now u dont have a "cheap" class anymore.

getting on the grid in cripple and 600s is the same price, a cheap used bike w/ bodywork. the max cost is also the same. the average cost of the whole grid is probably a good indicator of the cost/price of racing in that class... and thats really only dependent on how much people want to spend. cripples arent as popular now so thats keeping cost down. that can and will change.

the "cheap" thing about the SV and FZ class is that those expensive parts are less common or not even available. so its more likely that u can have a full grid without that extra cost.

 

[synfinatic]

Not just SV's, but it's actually pretty typical of "small" bikes which don't have a sportbike heritage. Ninja 250, SV650, etc. Things could of been a whole lot more expensive if the EX650 was a more popular here in the states because its motor has more potential then the SV. Just look how much $$$ people are putting into an EX650/ER-6 race bike in Europe. It kinda boggles the mind, but there's a ton of aftermarket/race support for those bikes in Europe thanks to people like Ryan Farquhar.

But yeah, once you start racing actual sport bikes with strong aftermarket support (like a modern 600), it becomes a lot easier to start spending big bucks. So yeah, in a few years I suspect you'll see people spending the same amount of money to run at the front of 450SB as in 600SB because it there is no difference other then the name of the class on the plastic trophy.

 

[Maize and Blue]

Not just SV's, but it's actually pretty typical of "small" bikes which don't have a sportbike heritage. Ninja 250, SV650, etc. Things could of been a whole lot more expensive if the EX650 was a more popular here in the states because its motor has more potential then the SV. Just look how much $$$ people are putting into an EX650/ER-6 race bike in Europe. It kinda boggles the mind, but there's a ton of aftermarket/race support for those bikes in Europe thanks to people like Ryan Farquhar.

But yeah, once you start racing actual sport bikes with strong aftermarket support (like a modern 600), it becomes a lot easier to start spending big bucks. So yeah, in a few years I suspect you'll see people spending the same amount of money to run at the front of 450SB as in 600SB because it there is no difference other then the name of the class on the plastic trophy.

or, once you start racing an actual sportbike you don't need to spend high dollars for one-off suspension that isn't typically supported to make a bike go fast. The chassis, wheels, ecu, etc. aftermarket support already exists. And for now you don't have to spend tons of money to run at the front. The lack of HP has a sort of equalizing effect. Eventually someone will figure out an advantage, as in every racing class

 

[synfinatic]

I think Robert/my point is that you can spend a lot more money on a race ECU for an R6 then last years championship winning bike in 650Twins. Nobody even makes a race ECU for a SV, Ninja 300, etc.

If you could for under $500 just "flip a switch" under the seat an convert your championship winning $30K R6 into a championship winning 450 would you do it? If you've already spent the money why not? Better chance at a top 10 plate right?

Don't get me wrong, people will spend a lot of money to get an advantage in _any_ class- but in the small bike classes you've gotta start getting a lot more creative and be willing to do crazy ass shit that most people don't want to try. Examples: My Ducati/SV and Justus' 649. But not many people are going to try their hand at one off custom engine parts or design/CNC parts for their frame. But anyone can just pick some parts out of a catalog if they've got the money.

Edit: I should mention that my bike is only legal for Formula classes which has traditionally been a "builders class". Only Justus' 649 is actually superbike legal.

 

[stangmx13]

or, once you start racing an actual sportbike you don't need to spend high dollars for one-off suspension that isn't typically supported to make a bike go fast. The chassis, wheels, ecu, etc. aftermarket support already exists. And for now you don't have to spend tons of money to run at the front. The lack of HP has a sort of equalizing effect. Eventually someone will figure out an advantage, as in every racing class

not entirely true. my new R6 doesnt have R6 fork carts in it. the extra cost over buying the R6 parts wasnt huge. of the extra i paid, 50% hardware and 50% knowledge to my tuner. the knowledge part gets expensive real fast.

Don't get me wrong, people will spend a lot of money to get an advantage in _any_ class- but in the small bike classes you've gotta start getting a lot more creative and be willing to do crazy ass shit that most people don't want to try. Examples: My Ducati/SV and Justus' 649. But not many people are going to try their hand at one off custom engine parts or design/CNC parts for their frame. But anyone can just pick some parts out of a catalog if they've got the money.

yep this. a crazy one-off bike will be more expensive, but not everyone can/will do it. so the AVERAGE cost of a bike in the class will still be lower. with an R6, u can drop 10k in bolt-ons pretty easily. everyone can do bolt-ons so the average cost of a bike in that class can and will be higher.

 

[Maize and Blue]

I think Robert/my point is that you can spend a lot more money on a race ECU for an R6 then last years championship winning bike in 650Twins. Nobody even makes a race ECU for a SV, Ninja 300, etc.

If you could for under $500 just "flip a switch" under the seat an convert your championship winning $30K R6 into a championship winning 450 would you do it? If you've already spent the money why not? Better chance at a top 10 plate right?

Don't get me wrong, people will spend a lot of money to get an advantage in _any_ class- but in the small bike classes you've gotta start getting a lot more creative and be willing to do crazy ass shit that most people don't want to try. Examples: My Ducati/SV and Justus' 649. But not many people are going to try their hand at one off custom engine parts or design/CNC parts for their frame. But anyone can just pick some parts out of a catalog if they've got the money.

Edit: I should mention that my bike is only legal for Formula classes which has traditionally been a "builders class". Only Justus' 649 is actually superbike legal.

I've never looked at the costs to race an SV, it never excited me. Different bikes appeal to different people. What would you say the average cost is to buy one and make it top 5 capable in 650Twins?

if you can win a championship in 600 why would you want to race 450's? It's much easier to get a top 10 plate with the 600 grid sizes. you have to put $30k into a bike to top 5 a 600, the top 5 450's from last year maybe averaged $8k. If a championship winning 600 from 2008 is no longer competitive why not flip a switch and race it where it is competitive.

not entirely true. my new R6 doesnt have R6 fork carts in it. the extra cost over buying the R6 parts wasnt huge. of the extra i paid, 50% hardware and 50% knowledge to my tuner. the knowledge part gets expensive real fast.

yep this. a crazy one-off bike will be more expensive, but not everyone can/will do it. so the AVERAGE cost of a bike in the class will still be lower. with an R6, u can drop 10k in bolt-ons pretty easily. everyone can do bolt-ons so the average cost of a bike in that class can and will be higher.

I completely agree that money will be spent where it can be. The difference I see is that you don't gain much of anything in the 450's by doing so. This means you don't need to spend the money to be top 5.

 

[TWF]

I've never looked at the costs to race an SV, it never excited me. Different bikes appeal to different people. What would you say the average cost is to buy one and make it top 5 capable in 650Twins?

You can buy class wining sv for $3k. This is where there is difference between 650 and 450 class and why 650 class is cheaper.
New 450 legal bike cost $11K.
New 650 legal bike cost $7K.

But there is more to it that that. You buy new R6 you are ahead of everybody, it is just much better bike than lets say 04/05 gsxr600.
That does not apply for 650 class because new bike is not any better than 99sv. There is no point to buy new 650 only to be competitive. You buy it for different reasons, like fz, it is different bike which appeal to people.

 

[TWF]

I completely agree that money will be spent where it can be. The difference I see is that you don't gain much of anything in the 450's by doing so. This means you don't need to spend the money to be top 5.

You can not describe class by current riders in it. Class is defined by rule book.

 

[Maize and Blue]

You can buy class wining sv for $3k. This is where there is difference between 650 and 450 class and why 650 class is cheaper.
New 450 legal bike cost $11K.
New 650 legal bike cost $7K.

But there is more to it that that. You buy new R6 you are ahead of everybody, it is just much better bike than lets say 04/05 gsxr600.
That does not apply for 650 class because new bike is not any better than 99sv. There is no point to buy new 650 only to be competitive. You buy it for different reasons, like fz, it is different bike which appeal to people.

You can't base the cost of running in a class by one bike that's for sale. How much did it cost to build it?
The class winning 450 last year was less than $5k to build it.
How much do you have to invest in the new FZ07 to make it top 3 competitive?

So, let's assume the cost is equivalent for the two classes and look at this from a trend perspective instead of the current rider makeup. How many 650's were on the 650prod grid last year on average. How many were 450's? How many are signed up for 650prod this year vs 450 prod?

 

[ZIM]

Fook me!! I miss racing.

 

[synfinatic]

A 650Prod bike is a top 5 bike in Formula 650Twins. There's ~1 sec between the two.

The reason 450 cripples are "cheap" now is because it's a new class. Costs are going to increase because they can. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[TWF]

You can't base the cost of running in a class by one bike that's for sale. How much did it cost to build it?
The class winning 450 last year was less than $5k to build it.
How much do you have to invest in the new FZ07 to make it top 3 competitive?

I am looking at it equivalent, you are not.
If you want to talk about new FZ07 than we will compare it to new R6.
If you want compare used bikes people can buy than sv's go for around $3k, capable of winning class. Aaron won class last year and paid $3k for his bike. Dan sold his class winning bike for $3.5k. I believe Catching's bike went for similar price and there is still his Prod bike for sale. Alan's bike can win as well and is under $3k.
I have seen couple 450's for sale (04/05 gsxr), they asking same as sv's go for.
FZ07 is not needed to win class. We don't even know how it will do since none has been raced.
I am also not claiming that you need new R6 to win 450 class, just that you can buy one if you want. Rule book makes your class more expensive than 650 class, it is that simple.

 

[ZXR400SP]

Yay but your fast It was funny every one was who's this guy and I was like he was 450 class champion the year I started riding. He's quick . Yes someone can in theory try to buy the class I just don't see it happening if you're going to do that why not go 600sbk or prod and get some real recognition. Still yes it could happen

I may be near the front end of the class when I show up but I'm not fast. I'm also probably 20 years older than most of the class and 30-40 lbs heavier if not more. Put someone fast on my bike and I think they could win the class. Nothing wrong with the chassis or suspension, just down on power compared to the cripples. Look what Dan did on the ZXR400 he raced, it was obvious from the videos that the cripples had more power and could motor past on the straight. Don't think I ever saw anyone pass him on the brakes or the exit of a corner. No one is going to buy the class without some talent. But put the two together and that's a different story.

 

[ZXR400SP]

I am looking at it equivalent, you are not.
If you want to talk about new FZ07 than we will compare it to new R6.
I am also not claiming that you need new R6 to win 450 class, just that you can buy one if you want. Rule book makes your class more expensive than 650 class, it is that simple.

But, but, no one is doing it so it must cheaper.