Exactly, and if class grows it will come. And is something I don't want to see in sv class because it would kill them. Growing one class in expense of other is not answer. You need to protect both.
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Free Racing at BW!
- Thread starter Mick-e
- Start date
Mick-e
Ride, Race, Live
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Location
- Oaktown
- Moto(s)
- EX650(race) - CCM Supermoto - XR50 - KTM SDR1290
- Name
- Mickey
Before I broke my leg in 2013 I was in conversation with Dave Pearce about getting one of these frames (with carbon tank and tail)
http://lwtracer.com/lwt-racing-bikes/tigcraft-ex650-racer/
Never version
http://lwtracer.com/lwt-racing-bikes/er650/tigcraft-er6-version-2/
If you don't want the custom frame you could spend the same amount of money on the forks and brake calipers
http://lwtracer.com/lwt-racing-bikes/er650/tsingtao-beer-racings-er6-supertwin/
But, but, no one is doing it so it must cheaper.
You guys all have short memory, There was $20k + bike already in 450 class
just to bring up the shit from the past
that was valentine Welch, 101 lbs in soaking wet leathers, compared to dan's, lets say 210 give or take. 100lbs on 70 HP bike makes a VERY large difference.
Couple other cripples as well, and Moss bike was faster as well.
Which is all irrelevant since all raced same class (450), not sv against cripple.
Maize and Blue
New member
^^This right here is the exact reason why a few of us have chimed in here.
Allowing the FZ07 into the middle twins is a smart move to help the class grow. Discussions about how Catching holds lap records on a stock SV and people being able to buy class winning SV's for $3k are great to help promote the class.
Zoran said, "Growing one class in expense of other is not answer. You need to protect both."
Promoting this false idea that the 450's are not an affordable class to race doesn't help the class grow. Just because you can spend a large sum of money on a bike doesn't guarantee that you can run at the front. Guys with some talent have shown that you can run at the front with cheap bikes.
No. Sv riders are faster than 450 riders. Again, rules are not made for riders but for bikes.
Maize and Blue
New member
Who is promoting that you have to buy expensive bike?
I am not but I would buy expensive one if I was to race it and competition is there. We already built $20k bike for class once and I would do it again if I was interested in it. I want to win and will do what it takes. I am not going to come race 450 class and buy 94 cbr600
. If somebody wants to race 94 cbr600 I have no problem with that.And that is because I already told you new bike (witch we did buy and spend money) is not any better than old one. That is not case with your class.
It is also big reason why I am doing everything I can to protect class. I don't want 250GP bike, or buel or bmw1200 or 550cc R6 or cripple in class that is not created for them. You have to protect class for bikes it is made for. If not we would be left with nothing.
Nobody has problem with you racing your cripple against sv/fz, but you will have to do in F4 not 650P.
If it was not changed cripples in 650P would slowly push out all twins and you would have 450P class. Pushing out part is bypassed and now you have your 450P. Now we will try to grow 650P.
What you guys will do with your 450P is up to you. Hopefully you don't kill it like last time.
afmotorsports
New member
JFC, you got busted for making this unwarranted statement and 75 posts later you're still at it! Fact of the matter is that the 450 cripples are mostly a class of recycled, slightly outdated 600's with a new lease on life. Pound for pound, they're by far the best entry level motorcycle in roadracing because they have practically all the benefits of a modern 600 - great frames, great geometry, great suspension, great brakes - but the power is toned down to be more like the old FZR400s, VFR400s, etc., which makes them an ideal entry level racebike.
450 racers typically find an older 600 racebike or trackbike, knock out one cylinder and they're golden. That recipe is not "gone with wind" and you know damn well it isn't. You and I busted our butts to try to make Honda Hawks and SVs into decent racebikes, but we still started with shit frames, shit suspension and shit brakes. We put a bunch of lipstick on those pigs and made them work quite well, but deep inside they were still pigs. They were never racebikes with lights, which is what the 600s are right off the showroom floor.
People see what Andy Palmer - and probably you too! - are doing with the FZ07 'R' and of course they don't want you screwing up their class and their fun. Those bikes are exotic works of art and are in a class of their own, exactly where they should be. This is not something new, the AFM did the same thing when Ducati jumped from 999cc to 1098cc - the club set a 250cc limit for twins running down a class so they wouldn't have an unfair advantage in the 750 classes. Another example is how thumpers were limited to 400cc in the 250 classes so that street legal bikes like the Husky 450 wouldn't crush the Ninjettes.
I'm sure you and Palmer and others will do marvelous things with the FZ07 and it's exciting to watch but that class is on a whole different level than recycled 600's turned into cripples. You guys can shout down and chase away Marcus and Ian and David and whoever calls you out on the cripples nonsense, but that still doesn't make you right.
Cripples may not be quite as interesting or exotic as the stuff you're building but pound for pound, dollar for dollar, they are by far the best entry level roadracing package. On top of that, the class is cool as hell, these people race together, bbq together and help each other out, exemplifying the AFM club racing spirit. And that's a good thing for everybody, even for you, because someday they may have the budget for one of those exotic FZ07R and might become your customers.
ZXR400SP
New member
Why don't you quote complete post instead part of it.
It is fact that 2016 R6 is legal and cost $11k.
Your 450 outdated class is up to at least 08 R6, not exactly old junker that cost $1000.
What I said in contest is correct. You guys are twisting it up.
ZXR400SP
New member
Wrong, try again, it was Ian and his Gixxer I was referring to, weight is closer but Dan is still heavier, but then again so am I. Nevertheless my point is still the same. Dan made up all his ground in the corners and lost it on the straights. I've also raced my ZXR400 against them too, Ian and Coats both had a Hp advantage. I've been racing 400's since 2002, I might have a clue.
You are contradicting your self there. You saying how great this 450's are, real sport bikes and not pigs like sv's. btw. they are great and they did surpass performance of pigs, they just need good rider.JFC, you got busted for making this unwarranted statement and 75 posts later you're still at it! Fact of the matter is that the 450 cripples are mostly a class of recycled, slightly outdated 600's with a new lease on life. Pound for pound, they're by far the best entry level motorcycle in roadracing because they have practically all the benefits of a modern 600 - great frames, great geometry, great suspension, great brakes - but the power is toned down to be more like the old FZR400s, VFR400s, etc., which makes them an ideal entry level racebike.
450 racers typically find an older 600 racebike or trackbike, knock out one cylinder and they're golden. That recipe is not "gone with wind" and you know damn well it isn't. You and I busted our butts to try to make Honda Hawks and SVs into decent racebikes, but we still started with shit frames, shit suspension and shit brakes. We put a bunch of lipstick on those pigs and made them work quite well, but deep inside they were still pigs. They were never racebikes with lights, which is what the 600s are right off the showroom floor.
People see what Andy Palmer - and probably you too! - are doing with the FZ07 'R' and of course they don't want you screwing up their class and their fun. Those bikes are exotic works of art and are in a class of their own, exactly where they should be. This is not something new, the AFM did the same thing when Ducati jumped from 999cc to 1098cc - the club set a 250cc limit for twins running down a class so they wouldn't have an unfair advantage in the 750 classes. Another example is how thumpers were limited to 400cc in the 250 classes so that street legal bikes like the Husky 450 wouldn't crush the Ninjettes.
I'm sure you and Palmer and others will do marvelous things with the FZ07 and it's exciting to watch but that class is on a whole different level than recycled 600's turned into cripples. You guys can shout down and chase away Marcus and Ian and David and whoever calls you out on the cripples nonsense, but that still doesn't make you right.
Cripples may not be quite as interesting or exotic as the stuff you're building but pound for pound, dollar for dollar, they are by far the best entry level roadracing package. On top of that, the class is cool as hell, these people race together, bbq together and help each other out, exemplifying the AFM club racing spirit. And that's a good thing for everybody, even for you, because someday they may have the budget for one of those exotic FZ07R and might become your customers.
Than you saying how pigs are all on another level, exotic piece of art. There is nothing exotic about them
Which one is it?
Yea, but the the talent was missing most of the time.
You thinking wrong bike. I was referring to our Aprilia.
afmotorsports
New member
The rest of your post was irrelevant, that's why I didn't quote it.
Look, here is a $3K turn-key racebike right in your neighborhood: http://reno.craigslist.org/mcy/5477768890.html
Anybody can cripple it and they're ready to race it next weekend, for less money than lots of bicycles I see around here!
FZ07 looks like this: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/mcd/5457545458.html If you're lucky to find a salvaged one, it might be half-price. And then it takes a crapload of time and money to make it look like this: http://lwtracer.com/lwt-racing-bikes/fz07/the-resurgence-of-the-lightweight-twins-fz07-r/
The FZ07R is badass, it makes me drool, I'm sure you're doing awesome stuff with it but on average, it's not nearly as easy or as cheap as a 450 cripple. Why can't you get that through your head? It's not a slam on the FZ07R, it's just a different animal.
You simply don't need to say that "cheap with cripple is gone with wind" because a) that's bullshit and b) it has practically nothing to do with FZ07. A stock FZ07 is basically the same pos racebike as that first yellow SV you had in '99, with the plastic dirtbike number plate in front. Once you swapped out the forks and developed the SV, you kicked my ass with it... at least when I could finish and the stupid Hawk didn't blow up!
Leave the cripples alone, they're a funky little animal but they serve a purpose and the people in the class are pretty cool.