So, Dave Ramsey....on car buying....

[MC BumSlap]

How is blaming boomers for everything any different than me making my generalizations?

One is right, the other is not. It's up to you to decide which is which.

Yes, his advice can be adjusted. His apparent black/white of what he says can/does irk people.

 

[951dude]

And for a LOT of people, it still isn't doable, with planning the way you're simplifying it.

You're setting up the scenario of having all your ducks in a row in just the right way. Not everyone has the opportunity and tools to do that. Backing it up with anecdotal experiences of a handful of people you know doesn't really help or prove anything other than you know people that bootstrapped just as much as you did. And I'm assuming some level of privilege you're not acknowledging while also sounding like you're pretty jaded from younger relatives or people you know who aren't willing to work as hard as you did, have more privilege they aren't taking advantage of. Your posts come off as if someone didn't do things the way you did, then they just didn't try hard enough. That's just not the case in many situations.

I graduated with student debt. But part of it was I made a conscious decision some of those years I wanted to just enjoy the college experience without having to punch the clock somewhere. I never bitched about my debt, I knew what I was doing and also cleared that debt about a year ago after making consistent payments of 500-700 dollars a month to the balance. Being able to contribute that much of my income to my debt on top of rent, groceries, and all other associated living expenses in California is not really possible for many.

It took me 8 years to get a 4 year degree for various reasons including major change. Part of it community college, part of it University, part working full time, part working part time, part not working at all. Part living with my parents, part living on campus. Part of it was grants and scholarships that cut down the tuition total by quite a bit. Part of it was parents paying for a percentage of tuition. And in this I acknowledge a ton of privilege of being able to just say, "nah, I'm not gonna work this semester and just focus on my classes and everything the university experience has to offer." Not everyone can do that or even have that thought in their head as an option. Even working full time, they HAVE to take on student debt still.

The newest and most expensive car I've ever owned was a 2006 Toyota Corolla (in 2008) that I sold after only 1 year. Most I've paid for a phone is about 40 bucks when the iphone 4s was a few models old and I ran that thing into the ground between 2014-2019 before it gave up the ghost. Current phone is free from work (privilege). Sure, I've bought 2 bikes brand new, both were under 10k. But the attack on people that have student debt, live with roommates, etc etc, because they buy a new 1000 dollar phone every year and need to drive a fancy car is lazy.

You are literally the example of ending up successful and yet you are arguing with me. FFS I'm making generalizations because you have to when you're talking about an entire population. Things will be alright if you make plans, manage debt and don't make stupid decisions with your money. That's Dave's entire premise.
Stupid is going to Stanford for a poetry degree and dumping it all on loans. Dave tells people to go to work on scholarships in high school, attend a good state school, work part time while in school, and get a worthwhile degree that lands a job afterwards. And you people are making that controversial.

 

[mean dad]

People do what they have to do but those sort of payments would keep me up at night. I kinda live as though I could be out of a job tomorrow.

This is my life right here.

 

[951dude]

One is right, the other is not. It's up to you to decide which is which.

Yes, his advice can be adjusted. His apparent black/white of what he says can/does irk people.

The boomers are simply the ones who have been in power. Things are changing, and it doesn't seem the millennials in government are going down a path that will lead to anything besides socialism. I suspect we will get there eventually.

Yes Dave can be a jerk. But I am not defending his personality.

 

[TheRobSJ]

I have a 'vette...

Dave Ramsey would approve of your ‘vette. Not so much mine.


As I said many pages back. I have cars that are way way overkill if you look at them as nothing more than transportation. I don’t have them because I give a shit if someone thinks I’m a baller or thinks I’m cool because I drive a particular car or whatever. I got what I got because high performance, sharp looks, and bells and whistles please the most important person involved. The one writing the check.

Honestly I see no difference between blowing way too much on a car and shopping at Whole Foods/Lunardis/etc versus that “yellow” aisle at the cheap grocery store. Or buying your clothes at Nordstrom versus Ross. If you can afford it without racking up a ton of debt? Fuck it. But what makes you happy. And Dave Ramsey can eat a cartload of bull dicks. Hopefully ones bought on sale.

 

[Kurosaki]

You are literally the example of ending up successful and yet you are arguing with me. FFS I'm making generalizations because you have to when you're talking about an entire population. Things will be alright if you make plans, manage debt and don't make stupid decisions with your money. That's Dave's entire premise.
Stupid is going to Stanford for a poetry degree and dumping it all on loans. Dave tells people to go to work on scholarships in high school, attend a good state school, work part time while in school, and get a worthwhile degree that lands a job afterwards. And you people are making that controversial.

Not really. And I'm not arguing with you. Just that the tone of your posts are that you come off as if people just plan and make the right choices, then they can do what you've done. It doesn't work that way for tons of people.

I'm successful, if what I said is your definition of success, because I've had a shit ton of privilege to get where I am. I didn't just bootstrap it from meager beginnings. My point is you're looking down your noise at a big demographic of people based on your own experiences and seem to be refusing the idea that some people might not be able to do it the way you did, and it's not for a lack of will power, planning, or determination.

You and others, including Dave, kept pushing this narrative of lavish spending on expensive phones, cars, etc. If your personal anecdotes are okay to make very broad strokes then I can do the same. No one in my circle of family/friends own expensive cars or buy new phone that cost $1000 every year. Some are carrying student debt, some aren't. And they didn't go to college to get a B.A. in underwater basket weaving.

Things will NOT always be alright, whatever alright means, just because you 'made plans and manage debt'. There's so many other factors in this equation. You're stuck on this position that because you did it, anyone can.

Also...

 

[SFSV650]

FU, my $120k Art History degree with a specialization in Indigenous Trash Pile Observations has clearly made me the best Barrista Starbucks has ever known. College Debt Relief is a human right!!!

This is the same forum where I learned that my postdoc STEM friend shouldn't expect more than the $16/hr she was making, as she 'isn't specialized enough'.

 

[ScarySpikes]

You are literally the example of ending up successful and yet you are arguing with me. FFS I'm making generalizations because you have to when you're talking about an entire population. Things will be alright if you make plans, manage debt and don't make stupid decisions with your money. That's Dave's entire premise.
Stupid is going to Stanford for a poetry degree and dumping it all on loans. Dave tells people to go to work on scholarships in high school, attend a good state school, work part time while in school, and get a worthwhile degree that lands a job afterwards. And you people are making that controversial.

No, we are pointing out that Dave's scenario is no longer even possible. I literally went through the math earlier, somebody in Dave's hometown of Nashville Tennessee would need to work 60 hours a week to fully fund being a full time student at TSU, those calculations were after accounting for a pretty generous scholarship/student aid package. Your situation in the 90's was not representative of a lower middle class experience even back then. The ability to afford 2 very expensive hobbies while in school makes that exceptionally clear. However, the experience between a student from a middle class family in the late 90's and a student from a middle class family now are vastly different. You are showing the same lack of understanding of how people experience the modern economy that Dave does.

Also, since you mentioned it. I would be willing to bet you that a student who got a poetry degree from Stanford is more likely to succeed than a student with an engineering degree from SJSU. The name brand and connections that come from being a Stanford alum matters way more than what major people choose. Not really related to Dave Ramsey, just another issue with our education system.

 

[quicksparks]

Also, since you mentioned it. I would be willing to bet you that a student who got a poetry degree from Stanford is more likely to succeed than a student with an engineering degree from SJSU. The name brand and connections that come from being a Stanford alum matters way more than what major people choose. Not really related to Dave Ramsey, just another issue with our education system.

I considered you somewhat credible before, but now? Not after saying that.

 

[MC BumSlap]

Failing upwards is what some people do coming from schools with well connected alumni.

 

[Kornholio]

You know, it's totally okay to NOT go to college, right?

 

[Kurosaki]

I considered you somewhat credible before, but now? Not after saying that.

Failing upwards is what some people do coming from schools with well connected alumni.

That. ^

And

Getting ahead due to attending prestigious colleges, being a part of prestigious fraternities, networking in these circles, family/friend relationships tied into one or all of these things, etc etc, is a thing. Always has been.

I don't see how that discredits anyone's opinion on the whole to suggest as much.

There's a bunch of unqualified assclowns in [insert position] at [insert company] primarily because of these reasons.

Lot of parents want their kids to go to certain fancy schools because of the name recognition, not because the education is better. Not sure what's weird about pointing that out as if it's some radical statement.

 

[eBay Mike]

You know, it's totally okay to NOT go to college, right?

If you work in a union trade (SF Bay Area) and show up, 120k-ish (range of 100-200k depending on OT and specific trade pay scale) is normal, if you’re halfway decent. Not bad for no college I suppose.

 

[quicksparks]

That. ^

And

Getting ahead due to attending prestigious colleges, being a part of prestigious fraternities, networking in these circles, family/friend relationships tied into one or all of these things, etc etc, is a thing. Always has been.

I don't see how that discredits anyone's opinion on the whole to suggest as much.

There's a bunch of unqualified assclowns in [insert position] at [insert company] primarily because of these reasons.

Lot of parents want their kids to go to certain fancy schools because of the name recognition, not because the education is better. Not sure what's weird about pointing that out as if it's some radical statement.

No rational person weighing the option of stanford poetry vs sjsu engineering is picking the poetry degree. Not when he has to pay for it himself.

 

[ScarySpikes]

I considered you somewhat credible before, but now? Not after saying that.

Really?

So, using the earlier calculations that we did for SJSU and TSU, Stanford only costs our middle class student just over 10k. (as in, less than SJSU or TSU, if you are lucky enough to get in., the admissions rate is like 5%.)

The average wage for a Stanford grad after 10 years is 143k. I could not find per major specifics for them 10 years out, but it's pretty reasonable to assume that even the lowest degree would be around or over 100k after 10 years.

SJSU is not a bad school, but also not a school with the type of reputation and network that Stanford has. I have found average starting wages for a bachelors student from the college of engineering, which was 60k, a little bit less than the national average for engineering students of 65k. So, being generous and assuming that they follow labor statistics for job growth with experience, an experienced SJSU grad in engineering would make about 90k on average.

Alumni networks at top tier universities are no joke, and state schools just do not foster that kind of alumni community.

 

[Kurosaki]

No rational person weighing the option of stanford poetry vs sjsu engineering is picking the poetry degree. Not when he has to pay for it himself.

I guess you missed the intentional hyperbole I picked up on (and in reality likely is not hyperbole much at all) and you're sticking to poetry/engineering degrees to dig your heels in. The point being, regardless of degree, having attended a fancy prestigious legacy college may and often does carry much more weight than whatever you actually did during that time.

Surely you aren't naive enough to believe you don't know anybody, personally or not, that got to a high position because of the high class college they went to and potentially who their daddy was that went to the same school.

And these colleges are not necessarily substantially more expensive than other schools. It's not an issue of tuition fees.

 

[JesasaurusRex]

No, we are pointing out that Dave's scenario is no longer even possible. I literally went through the math earlier, somebody in Dave's hometown of Nashville Tennessee would need to work 60 hours a week to fully fund being a full time student at TSU, those calculations were after accounting for a pretty generous scholarship/student aid package. Your situation in the 90's was not representative of a lower middle class experience even back then. The ability to afford 2 very expensive hobbies while in school makes that exceptionally clear. However, the experience between a student from a middle class family in the late 90's and a student from a middle class family now are vastly different. You are showing the same lack of understanding of how people experience the modern economy that Dave does.

Also, since you mentioned it. I would be willing to bet you that a student who got a poetry degree from Stanford is more likely to succeed than a student with an engineering degree from SJSU. The name brand and connections that come from being a Stanford alum matters way more than what major people choose. Not really related to Dave Ramsey, just another issue with our education system.

"Math doesn't change based on where you live" or something like that

 

[mikev]

You know, it's totally okay to NOT go to college, right?

Mike Rowe graduated college with a degree and turned himself into a media personality.

 

[quicksparks]

I guess you missed the intentional hyperbole I picked up on (and in reality likely is not hyperbole much at all) and you're sticking to poetry/engineering degrees to dig your heels in. The point being, regardless of degree, having attended a fancy prestigious legacy college may and often does carry much more weight than whatever you actually did during that time.

Surely you aren't naive enough to believe you don't know anybody, personally or not, that got to a high position because of the high class college they went to and potentially who their daddy was that went to the same school.

And these colleges are not necessarily substantially more expensive than other schools. It's not an issue of tuition fees.

Oh was he using hyperbole. I didn't know I was supposed to divine that he meant that the stanford poetry major was pre-law and that it was a given that she was a senator's niece.

I am not disputing that the more prestigious the college, the more doors are opened. All else being equal, the name on the college is quite significant. However, when you factor in the cost of that name, you have to analyze the risk that the ROI just won't be there after graduation.

Poet for poet, if you can afford it and think the ROI is there, go to stanford. Engineer for engineer, likewise. But don't go to the more expensive school if you can't afford it, and don't cry foul when your gamble doesn't pay off and demand that we sweep it all under the rug that is the national debt.

 

[quicksparks]

Also, the term "likely" was used. We are talking about distributions, statistics, probability, etc. are we not? So you're telling me that you would use your hard earned money to send your kid to the ivy league school to get a gender studies degree, rather than a state school to get an engineering degree? You're gonna take that bet more than 50% of the time?