So, Dave Ramsey....on car buying....

[wazzuFreddo]

What's the going rate today?

$24,909

So if, in your planning stages, you didn't anticipate a ~500% increase in costs... that's on you.

$12k for in state and $25k for out of state right now. Still, I don't think it is realistic to expect a student to work during the college year to pay for it, school is really your full time job.

At least that was true for my engineering degree. For my MBA I worked full time while doing it but I took 2 classes per quarter rather than 3 which spread the program across 2.5 years rather than the normal 2. Also, all the classes at Cal State Hayward were in the evening and geared towards people working full time.

 

[Yakoo752]

$12k for in state and $25k for out of state right now. Still, I don't think it is realistic to expect a student to work during the college year to pay for it, school is really your full time job.

At least that was true for my engineering degree. For my MBA I worked full time while doing it but I took 2 classes per quarter rather than 3 which spread the program across 2.5 years rather than the normal 2. Also, all the classes at Cal State Hayward were in the evening and geared towards people working full time.

https://admission.wsu.edu/tuition-costs/tuition-break-down/

I am including housing and dining but I am sure you can do that for less then $1250 a month off campus.

You just have to be making $10.50 an hour and have 0 other expenditures

oh wait...

 

[quicksparks]

Because the concept and idea of a collegiate requirement to get ahead is so engrained in the American ideology. Because it's one of the few quantifiable measures we can still use to separate the wheat from the chaff. Because the corporate workforce still values it for some silly fucking reason.

Note, the costs didn't go up until the Gov got their dirty fucking hands on it.

I do not believe in a blanket erase of student debt. I believe that Federal Student loans should be forgiven because they were underwritten based on set determinants of need. If you took out loans in excessive, that's on you.

The bolded part, I don't know enough about to have a strong opinion. My knee jerk reaction is, that sounds dangerous. But the rest of your quote, I agree with.

My understanding is that for the past 20 years or more, student loans have been 100% guaranteed by the federal government. I don't know when that started, but while still in HS I learned that that's the reason why lenders target potential college students so hard. It's no risk for them. They know they won't lose their money. I think they get it no matter what, even if you haven't repayed it before you die. Several pages back in this thread, someone said that during the Bush Administration a new law went into effect prohibiting student loans from being wiped clean by bankruptcy. That actually makes sense. You can't repossess someone's college education, so, why not take out a shit ton of loans, get educated, declare bankruptcy, then be golden 7 years later?

 

[Yakoo752]

My understanding is that for the past 20 years or more, student loans have been 100% guaranteed by the federal government. I don't know when that started, but while still in HS I learned that that's the reason why lenders target potential college students so hard. It's no risk for them. They know they won't lose their money. I think they get it no matter what, even if you haven't repayed it before you die. Several pages back in this thread, someone said that during the Bush Administration a new law went into effect prohibiting student loans from being wiped clean by bankruptcy. That actually makes sense. You can't repossess someone's college education, so, why not take out a shit ton of loans, get educated, declare bankruptcy, then be golden 7 years later?

I should get more specific I am talking about Stafford loans

 

[quicksparks]

Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact that y'all are legit acting like human beings are computer controlled machines that logically and methodically plan each and every action and weigh all possible negatives while accounting for life's variables?
No emotions, no manipulation, no responsibilities that may preclude bettering one's position; everyone lives in a controlled environment with clear choices and no external forces so if they're poor it's their fault.

Making decisions based on emotion hurts sometimes. One should strive to avoid it. For those inevitable times when humans are just human, there are plenty of societal safety nets in place already. Making all manner of people's irrationality be free of consequence is no way to run a society.

Oh, you didn't work three jobs and live with four strangers while going to the school you can barely afford? Fuck you, stay in your minimum wage job and don't ever fucking complain about a living wage you lazy piece of shit.

Your words, not anybody else's in this thread. The people you're mocking are trying to point out ways that someone, if they were so motivated to avoid debt, could feasibly achieve that goal. You feel it's unrealistic for most people, which is fine.

The financial advice that's so controversial and comes off so harsh is analogous this situation: a doughy man accuses a big, muscular man of being on steroids. The fit man, who isn't on steroids, might respond, "Do you get 8 hours of sleep every night? No? Do you exercise regularly? No? Do you log the food you eat to know your calorie and macro intake? No? Then shut up."

The people taking on a moderate amount of debt to achieve their goals, and then paying it back in a timely manner, are not the problem.

Most people go to Dave Ramsey for advice when after they're pretty well messed up financially. He basically tells them to put the box of doughnuts down.

 

[justanotherg20]

No rational person weighing the option of stanford poetry vs sjsu engineering is picking the poetry degree. Not when he has to pay for it himself.

I can easily see someone with a BA in poetry from Stanford getting a job at like the New Yorker or the Atlantic, because STANFORD

SJSU? Genuinely curious, I don't doubt they're employable but what do you get with a BS? My sister graduated UCLA with a biochem degree circa 2004 and while she got a job at a drug manufacturing co, she was entry level and they wouldn't let her do anything cool because she only had a bachelor's.

A relative of mine turned down a full ride at a well known state school to go to an ivy league school where expenses were only paid for 1 year. Said person graduated and is in the work force.

At the time I thought the state school was the way to go. I still believe that to be true.

Depending on the ivy, and their career field, the roi might be worth the investment in this example

+1

For, say, a film major one year at USC might garner them more connections than four years at a CSU would, and who you know will get you in the door a lot quicker than what you know.

 

[mean dad]

Actually it has been pointed out that having 3 or 4 roommates in order to afford to go to college is one of bootstraps one must use, as is paying your way instead of taking loans. I will agree that the 'lazy piece of shit' is more implied than stated.

And I'm all for personal responsibility. I live well within my means and have zero debt beyond my mortgage...which I am making extra payments on.

I just think the system is gamed from the start.

 

[Yakoo752]

SJSU? Genuinely curious, I don't doubt they're employable but what do you get with a BS? My sister graduated UCLA with a biochem degree circa 2004 and while she got a job at a drug manufacturing co, she was entry level and they wouldn't let her do anything cool because she only had a bachelor's.

Yep, a bachelors is the new HSD and a Masters is the new BS

I laugh at all the candidates I screen that have a masters and 0 work experience. What good is that degree with none?

 

[kingmoochr]

which I am making extra payments on.

As an aside to this thread, and assuming you're clever enough to have a sub 3% interest rate on your loan which has been available all year, there are better earning potentials for that extra money then paying off a cheap loan. You should calculate your situation out, see how much principal you're saving over what period, then see if there are better options for earning on that money. There likely are. Your payoff may play into some larger scheme, but if not and you're just doing it to do it, you should evaluate all your options. You may be able to make more money in less time investing it instead of paying down your principal.

 

[mean dad]

As an aside to this thread, and assuming you're clever enough to have a sub 3% interest rate on your loan which has been available all year, there are better earning potentials for that extra money then paying off a cheap loan. You should calculate your situation out, see how much principal you're saving over what period, then see if there are better options for earning on that money. There likely are. Your payoff may play into some larger scheme, but if not and you're just doing it to do it, you should evaluate all your options. You may be able to make more money in less time investing it instead of paying down your principal.

That's where I fall off the make-your-money-work-for-you train. I started by just rounding up to an even hundred dollar number and when I refi'ed I kept paying the same amount which translates to about 3 or 4 extra payments a year.
A fifteen year loan would probably be a better vehicle for me but that demands a higher monthly premium. Right now I can cut my payment to the required amount and save a few hundred bucks a month if things get tight for any reason.

It's a whole lot easier for me to take a little bit of advantage by paying extra and leave some on the table. I'm not quite disciplined enough to really maximize my finance's potential.
Hell I'm about to upgrade my backyard tenfold. I know it'll increase the value but I also know there will be a LOT of wasted money during the process.

 

[MysterYvil]

Making decisions based on emotion hurts sometimes. One should strive to avoid it. For those inevitable times when humans are just human, there are plenty of societal safety nets in place already. Making all manner of people's irrationality be free of consequence is no way to run a society.



Your words, not anybody else's in this thread. The people you're mocking are trying to point out ways that someone, if they were so motivated to avoid debt, could feasibly achieve that goal. You feel it's unrealistic for most people, which is fine.

The financial advice that's so controversial and comes off so harsh is analogous this situation: a doughy man accuses a big, muscular man of being on steroids. The fit man, who isn't on steroids, might respond, "Do you get 8 hours of sleep every night? No? Do you exercise regularly? No? Do you log the food you eat to know your calorie and macro intake? No? Then shut up."

The people taking on a moderate amount of debt to achieve their goals, and then paying it back in a timely manner, are not the problem.

Most people go to Dave Ramsey for advice when after they're pretty well messed up financially. He basically tells them to put the box of doughnuts down.

Plenty of societal safety nets? Do tell.

.

 

[mikev]

It's not "wasted" if it's adding to your quality of life though IMO.

 

[mean dad]

It's not "wasted" if it's adding to your quality of life though IMO.

No I mean wasted like lots of pieces cut wrong, useless purchases, various mistakes, revised plans, and then finally paying someone to do it right.

 

[kingmoochr]

No I mean wasted like lots of pieces cut wrong, useless purchases, various mistakes, revised plans, and then finally paying someone to do it right.

All my DIY projects.....got it

 

[Eldritch]

No I mean wasted like lots of pieces cut wrong, useless purchases, various mistakes, revised plans, and then finally paying someone to do it right.

Why do you hate fun?

 

[mikev]

No I mean wasted like lots of pieces cut wrong, useless purchases, various mistakes, revised plans, and then finally paying someone to do it right.

Now you know why I haven't started building my workbench

 

[quicksparks]

Actually it has been pointed out that having 3 or 4 roommates in order to afford to go to college is one of bootstraps one must use, as is paying your way instead of taking loans. I will agree that the 'lazy piece of shit' is more implied than stated.

And I'm all for personal responsibility. I live well within my means and have zero debt beyond my mortgage...which I am making extra payments on.

I just think the system is gamed from the start.

Right on.

 

[quicksparks]

I should get more specific I am talking about Stafford loans

That sounds like what I was describing ("backed by the full faith of the US government"). I'd have to research whether there are other types of student loans that fit that description.

I think back to about 10-15 years ago when people still watched TV and there were ads at every commercial break for www.icanaffordcollege.com. And during the recession when a bunch of working people went back to school just because. On one hand, maybe they got laid off and they thought an advanced degree would help them. On the other, I doubt they funded it very wisely.

 

[quicksparks]

Plenty of societal safety nets? Do tell.

.

I think you have to make a lot of wrong decisions over a long course of time to end up destitute. That's what I mean.

I think a lot of people blindly walk right up to the edge, and when they realize where they ended up, they fail to realize how they got there, so of course to them, it seems like they've been on a tight-rope with no net all along.

Of course there are people in the tails of the distribution who never had a chance. And the government absolutely takes care of them at great expense.

 

[Yakoo752]

That sounds like what I was describing ("backed by the full faith of the US government"). I'd have to research whether there are other types of student loans that fit that description.

I think back to about 10-15 years ago when people still watched TV and there were ads at every commercial break for www.icanaffordcollege.com. And during the recession when a bunch of working people went back to school just because. On one hand, maybe they got laid off and they thought an advanced degree would help them. On the other, I doubt they funded it very wisely.

Different types of Fed loans. Subsidized (Stafford) and Unsubsidized and they have different limits and interest rates.

Subsidized, the gov't pays the interest during the time period you are in school. Unsubsidized, you accrue the interest during the time period you are in school.

Subsidized is the "best" one available, it also has the lowest limits. I think you can draw $5k annually on a subsidized loan based on class standing. This is strictly based on need.

Now you get into the unsub loans where the gov't doesn't think you need to borrow but they will extend it so you don't have to work while in school

And then you have private loans

How it all breaks down. Something like $1.5T in Federal student loans. $300B in subsidized loans (FFEL/ Stafford/Perkins)

Stafford Subsidized $285.7 billion 29.6 million borrowers
Stafford Unsubsidized $539.8 billion 29.2 million borrowers
Stafford combined $825.5 billion 33.4 million unique recipients
Grad PLUS $82.8 billion 1.5 million borrowers
Parent PLUS $100.8 billion 3.6 million borrowers
Perkins $5.2 billion 1.7 million borrowers
Consolidation $552.1 billion 11.5 million borrowers

Private loans are about $200B

note: once the gov got their hands in, the cost of tuition went up significantly. This was strictly due to opening up the availability of money for students to borrow. Had we maintained the prior system of only those that could truly afford to attend, could go... This financial problem wouldn't be present. So, the gov created the problem... they need to fix it. As an independent student, I can sign $57,500 in loans with nobody checking my credit. No income requirement. NOTHING. Just have to be enrolled. No other loan at this size, doesn't require this. Why? because that amount is what the Gov guarantees will be paid...